Live All Your Life

021 How To Take Self Ownership : The Philosophy Of Fitness

November 14, 2022 Cody Limbaugh and Tali Zabari Season 1 Episode 21
Live All Your Life
021 How To Take Self Ownership : The Philosophy Of Fitness
Show Notes Transcript

This could change your life! Learning the skills of self-ownership is likely the most important key to living the life you want.

00:00 Intro

00:46 A vulnerable icebreaker: Cody's introvertedness and feeling insecure about conversation, being steamrolled over by others, and why.

04:05 Tali's family was like the scene from Annie Hall

05:28 Being honest and bringing up your insecurities to people who are close to you can help give them the tools they need to support you. Cody and Tali have a policy of not only 100% honesty, but to bring anything that's bothering us up as fast as possible to each other in order to avoid build-up and long-term resentment.

07:20 Self-Ownership, a worthy virtue to develop, but beware of a darker side to it

09:40 Developing action steps toward the cultivation of self-ownership, Aristotle.

11:45 Inherent traits vs. actionable skills: Take ownership of your introvert / extrovert "nature", take ownership of your worries for the future and develop the skill of curiosity and wonder.

18:23 Internal vs. external locus of control

19:23 ACTION STEP: Practice changing your language around circumstances

25:15 Letting go of excuses is powerful in your interactions with others, but what's even more powerful is how you're programming yourself with your self-talk.

26:28 The Brain That Changes Itself

26:44 Cody's guest interview on The Mental Health Toolbox podcast

28:31 Self-ownership and integrity go hand-in-hand

29:03 ACTION STEP: Your fitness is a great place to learn the skills of self-ownership

32:35 ACTION STEP: Develop self-ownership by creating accountability to someone else

35:15 ACTION STEP: Begin to recognize patterns in your life.

36:58 ACTION STEP: Learning to apologize properly can help train you to take ownership

39:26 Self-Ownership requires self-awareness...Know thyself (Self-knowledge requires action, not just thinking)

41:17 Is Self-ownership at odds with self-acceptance? (this controversial section is not for the faint of heart)

48:37 Addiction is not an excuse to avoid self-ownership 

52:23 Tali's struggle with purging and how she gained the confidence to change

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Hi, this is Cody Limbaugh and I'm Tali Zabari, and you're listening to the Philosophy of Fitness podcast on the Lyceum Network.

So before we start recording, we always have a sound check and you had said something really casually after hearing it back that I really want you to talk about more because. I just thought it was really interesting and I know this has come up many times and I figured it would be a good opportunity for our icebreaker today.

Okay, well , this is a little bit of a vulnerable moment I guess, so we're just gonna get right into it, this conversation. Why not? So most of my life, or all my life I've been, so when I was really little, I used to get complimented a lot on how quiet I was because my parents' friends would always describe me as being so mature for my age.

And basically it's just cuz I didn't spazz out and talk all the time, like a lot of kids do. I would just sit and listen to conversations, but there was some not so nice childhood memories that I have of re of reinforcements for that. Mm-hmm. , you know, getting in trouble for speaking at turn in really embarrassing ways.

So I kind of always attributed my demeanor to a lot of those types of things. And then later on I was accused of being shy, and then in high school I was accused of being arrogant and all those things. Ooh, all those things are kind of just the result of the same thing of just being an introverted, quiet type person.

But one thing that's always really frustrated me is that when I do engage in conversations, I'm often interrupted, and I don't mean interrupted like sometimes. I mean, I feel like almost every time I speak someone speaks over me. And some of that frustration I just look at as on my like a, in a self deprecating kind of way, because I feel like I didn't gain the social skills needed when I was really little that a lot of people do.

And so I just attributed it to my own kind of ineptitude of having. Conversations, and I think I may have even brought this up in a former podcast that a lot of times I overthink what I'm about to say as well. And so by the time I engage in a conversation, it's already moved on. And so then I'm like, Well, forget it.

I'm not gonna bring that up now cuz that was like three sentences ago and the conversation's moving on without me. And so again, I just kind of end up sitting there and saying nothing. But then when I finally do speak up, I'm often interrupted. And in doing this podcast, in doing the editing for this podcast, I've realized that my voice is way quieter than I think it is.

Being inside my own head, but hearing it on recording, I can understand that it's way different. Like your peak levels on the software are about twice what my peak levels are. And people may not realize that listening to the podcast cuz I have magic software that fixes it all for us and makes it all sound more even.

But I've just come to the realization that maybe this is not some trauma issue and maybe it's not even like a rudeness issue or social awkwardness or any of those things I was attributing. It could just be that my voice is so quiet, people don't realize I'm talking until they've already kind of steamrolled over me.

Well, it's definitely more than one thing. First of all, I'm gonna be incredibly paranoid through this whole recording whether or not I'm interrupting you, but I feel like I have gotten better about that. Not only for a recording sake, but I come from a family of interrupters. If you've ever seen the movie Annie Hall, there's this great scene of Woody Allen with his family at the dinner table, and they're all just shouting over each other.

That's my family for sure. Especially when we're Yeah, especially when we're all together. And even my mom, my sister and I, we are constantly talking over each other and I would say only in the last few years has it started to bother me a little bit. So I've noticed that I tend to pull back a lot. And yes, you said like this is definitely like maybe a, a potential personal issue that you have for various reasons, but at the same time, there's a lot of other things that are like not within your control.

You know, the art of conversation is not something that I think is highly valued.  in lots of arenas, there is the feeling that people are just waiting for their turn to speak. Active listening isn't necessarily everyone's strong suit. Mm-hmm. . So I would say it's a little bit of both for sure. And I know that, that, that this is something that you've mentioned to me that you're sensitive about.

So I, I don't know how good I am at it at this point, but just know that that has been something I've been really paying attention to, especially when I do cut you off like accidentally or something. I hope you notice that I will circle back and say I'm sorry, what were you saying? I didn't mean to cut you off.

Absolutely. Of course. I recognize that. I'm glad. It's something I appreciate a lot about you because you've made that a point since. Got together, I mean, for the last five years. Well, I hadn't always cared to, no one had ever has ever said that to me as that being problematic for them. And so, of course, like this is just a PSA to remind everybody that like if there are things like that things or things like this that kind of irk you or kind of bring up like insecurities or whatever it is, like sharing that with people who are close to you that you're safe with can go such a long way with like diminishing those dynamics.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. You and I have done a lot since we met to make an active effort to eliminate small things that we know might cause resentment over a buildup of years. , You know, we've had conversations like that before where we wanna bring things to the table as fast as possible so that it doesn't just become some deep seated little niggle that just kind of eats away at you.

What

We're just gonna let that one slide, that was a hilarious word. I don't know if it was real or not, but it was funny that our first podcast episode for Philosophy Fitness had come up and nomenclature got a lot of feedback as a, as a funny one that you had used. So nerdy. Yeah, that's okay. For real. I don't mind being nerdy.

I don't mind it either, but I, Sorry, I just cut you off. No, go ahead. I do think this is a really interesting icebreaker because I think it actually segues into what we're talking about pretty well today, which is the idea of self ownership and. That is definitely a value that you and I share in cultivating and maintaining and evolving.

And so your more inherent default to this is my issue or this is something that I can work on, or this is something that I need to figure out. I think that is kind of a testament to your pursuit of self ownership, don't you think? Yeah. And that brings up a point I hadn't really thought about until we start rolling u Usually we go out on a date and take some notes on some bullet points that we wanna bring up in the show.

And today I'm totally winging it with no notes because of our schedule. So a lot of things are coming to mind. One of those things is self ownership has a lot of different features to it, rather than just a myopic view of, you know, you gotta own your own shit kind of thing. Mm-hmm. , there's there can be some dark sides to that as well.

You know, taking ownership for things that, I hate to say aren't your fault, because fault a lot of times doesn't fucking matter. Like, and a lot of the things that we deal with in our lives, whether it's childhood trauma or whatever, like assigning blame doesn't, isn't really needed in many instances. It's like, well, this thing happened now let's go ahead and deal with it.

And that's a self ownership, you know, that in itself is a, in an aspect of self ownership, but there's kind of a darker side too, where you can also blame yourself for shit that really wasn't your fault or blame yourself or a. Like I started the conversation with, it's a self-deprecating type of thinking of I'm not good enough cuz I'm not doing this thing.

And sometimes there really are external circumstances that have put you in that position. I mean, it's definitely a dynamic, you know, play. Absolutely. I mean if like anything else, it's gonna be a pendulum swing and so I'm hoping I had written a note like how do we develop self ownership and like, do we even have any advice to give to that?

I'm sure that there are plenty of anecdotes and events that have happened in our lives. Cultivated self ownership, but in terms of counseling someone else how to do so that might be tricky, but that would be really cool to actually come up with it. My, my hope for this podcast is not only for us to be able to analyze these things, but action steps are huge.

Mm-hmm.  You know, as coaches and through my nutrition certification, I've been kind of coming up with a formula with checking in with clients and one of the important bullet points is to give actionable steps. It's really easy to like, you know, give sandwich feedback and, you know, remind them of where we're trying to go or to be forgiving of themselves, but you've gotta build traction too.

Mm-hmm. . And sometimes you know, it's really obvious and that there are. Action steps that are to kind of dig you out of a hole. But sometimes you still need action steps if you are doing really great and you need to keep raising that bar or ceiling. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And with this podcast, I have a lot of fun just talking about concepts and philosophy and that type of thing, but the name of our podcast is The Lym Network.

And just again, going back to Aristotle, I think one reason I fell in love with him early in my pursuit of philosophy is that he was big on action steps too. Like he's, of all the, the oldest texts that I've read about, he seems to be in the very modern genre of personal development. I mean, he , it's interesting because he talks about really deep stuff, but then he is just like, here's, you know, you take action in your life and that you can create habits for yourself that shape your own character.

And, you know, it's very. I don't know. It's, like I said, it's like a modern personal development book written 2300 years ago. It's pretty cool. But as far as action steps today, I think, I think my first inclination would be to just point out that there are a lot of things that we consider or maybe even not consider, but just sort of subconsciously attribute to natural born inclinations or personality traits.

Mm. Don't get me started . Yeah. Well, well, and sometimes there's some truth in that, but that does not mean that certain things cannot be developed as a skill. Yes. It's not static. People are not static. Right. And yeah, we're human beings. Right. And being, I had, I was a guest on another podcast recently with Boob and I had brought up on in that interview that things like curiosity and wonder.

W are things that we're born with, but they are also skills that you can develop. And a lot of people really get attached to having to know what's going on and what's gonna happen and they live a, it can really stifle people in their fear. I heard a of a study recently that people who are the most polarized politically, and it didn't matter if it was the right or the left, just the people who are on the fringes the most extreme are also correlated with people who are very uncomfortable with uncertainty.

Positively correlated. Yes. And so people who are less comfortable with an uncertain outcome feel the need to control the narrative of society and other people. And you know, that kinda makes sense that they would be polarized politically. Mm. So I feel like it's a very important topic to bring out to people that developing the skill of curiosity and wonder.

Can literally save a lot of the social problems that we're dealing with particularly in the West right now. I know this is super off topic, but my point is, is that I think that self ownership is also something that can be practiced if you have an internal locus of control or an external locus of control.

I think sometimes we attribute that to personality types and I don't believe that that is the case. I think that we can develop grooves early on in our life that makes it seem like it's an inherent trait, but that does not mean that there aren't skills that can be practiced. I've also felt that way about introverts and extrovert.

There was a while where I would consider myself an introvert, but a trained extrovert. Mm-hmm. . And so there's obviously fluidity there, so I have a tendency to get kind of irked sometimes when people say what they are. Definitively. Yeah. Only because I am so. I so buy into that fluidity, and I feel like there are so many circumstances that can really influence that.

Especially like you said with practice. Like if that's something that you're really dedicated to it's very possible to shift that needle. But I haven't collected much data there. I feel like there's a lot of there's a lot of time that needs to be considered to, to shift significantly. Well, Adam, my brother Adam, has discussed the same thing, that he is an introvert, but no one would know it because he's trained himself to be more extroverted in.

Walking up to strangers asking their names, like he's always, or just fucking with them too.  or just, fuck yeah, he's, he's got this dry sense of humor. That is amazing actually. Cuz he's hilarious, but sometimes you have to, even as well as I know him sometimes I have to pause and Are you serious right now?

But yeah, he's cultivated that. You would never know that he's generally an introvert because he is the first person in our group when he, you know, when. When the guys go out together, he's the only, he's usually the first one that goes up to strangers and is kicking up conversations and Oh, yeah. I would never have guessed until you told me this Yeah.

That he would consider himself an introvert. Yeah. But I guess, but he and I have talked about it, and it's a skill that he's developed into the point where it's integrated mm-hmm.  to be more natural. So now it's not, it doesn't even take effort anymore. It's literally he's changed sort of that inherent trait, if you will, of being more extroverted.

And he said that it's because he realized as a, as an introvert that he's missing a lot of opportunities. And so that was motivation enough for him to make a change in his practices. So I would say similarly as someone who would consider themselves a trained extrovert I. Being a coach for CrossFit classes, I often felt like it was kind of a performative position to be in.

You know, it's usually me up at the whiteboard in front of a group of people. There's like that separation, like you almost have an audience. Oh yeah. And it was really important for me to be charismatic and entertaining and try to connect with them, even with it being a big group. And so I'd say through that work I really was able to like feel energized by other people's energy.

And I feel like that is kind of the defining feature of being an introvert or an extrovert. It's like what kind of energy feeds you. Yeah. And I like to have, you know, my alone time and recharge that way, but I also really like fed off of their energy too. It made me better at my job. Mm-hmm. . So I guess we kind of got on a tangent there.

It's not really the topic of today, but I think that's, It does relate Well, I, I think it does relate to taking ownership though, because I think people can use that whole introverted, extroverted thing as if they're a victim to it. You know, like, Well I'm an introvert, therefore I'm can't do X, Y, Z or whatever.

Or maybe it's an excuse, I don't wanna do XYZ cuz I'm this but that whole it is that a lot of the time. But the, I think the whole phrase of, Well I am a this and therefore I can't do that, I think is really at the root of what we're talking about with self ownership. Because we are malleable, we can change and we can take ownership of ourselves and take responsibility for the traits that we choose to develop or ignore or allow to atrophy or.

Whatnot. So I guess it's all related. I'd say so in a way. So in considering self ownership, it's such a broad topic, I think because there's different ways of coming at it. So I've mentioned that there's maybe a negative aspect to it where you're self blaming for things that are really beyond your control.

I think that's maybe part of it, but the. Other aspect of is just to be able to recognize whether you have an internal locus of control or an external locus of control. And I think to define that for people who may not be familiar with that terminology and internal locus of control is one where you are assuming that you have some control in your life.

And obviously you can't control everything. You can't control circumstances and whatnot. But you do have the agency. Agency, exactly. That's a great word. I love that word. Yeah, that's great. The agency to take responsibility for things despite your circumstances, or you can maybe not control certain actions, but you can control your reactions.

Yeah. And an external locus of control is a default that people will often use of, Well, I couldn't get to the appointment on time because of traffic. And it's like, well, You're not lying, but at the same time, you could have taken responsibility to leave 20 minutes earlier or, Yeah. A way of rephrasing that would be, I didn't, you know, con I didn't consider traffic.

Traffic. Right. Or leaving early enough to Right. You know, accommodate for traffic. Right. There's, It's amazing though, because changing the phrasing in and of itself comes off so differently in the way that it's received or in the way that you are identifying with the statement. Right. Yeah. I'm sorry, I'm like kind of bulldozing over you, but my gosh, I'm such a, I feel like I'm very, I try to be very precise with the words that I choose, and even though I don't always think of myself as the most articulate person, I often am blanking on what I want and mean to say.

But I hope that what I say is accurate, and I think that. Rephrasing something as simple as I'm late because of traffic goes so far in terms of the agency that you actually have and acknowledging that there was room for another possibility that I had control over. Yeah. And that's kind of like a small, tiny example, but man, like amplified on a larger scale is cha like it's life changing.

Well that, that's the whole point of practice though, right? Is that, that's a small thing and maybe insignificant in most cases, but that's how you get good at something is by practicing the easier things first. Mm-hmm. , you know, you learn to play the scales before you're rock mono off. You know, you're you are gonna take these baby steps and I think self ownership can be.

As simple as learning to rephrase things, to be able to take responsibility for them. Yeah. In the exact way that you just described. But the other thing besides just how it's received by other people is how it's received by yourself and your own identity as someone who has agency over their life or not.

And I think I've, I've been guilty of it. And of course, sometimes it's easier to recognize these things than other people. And then we don't realize that we're doing it ourselves. Mm-hmm. . But I've known a lot of people who will say that they take ownership and responsibility and they even might be on a train of thought or expressing how they dislike a victim mentality and that type of phrasing.

And they'll say those words in their lives. But then when. When things get hot, like they can't stand the fire and they're always looking, they kind of like blurt out an excuse that isn't their their fault. Can you gimme an example of what you're talking about? Well, I, I think the traffic example is the same thing, like what I'm talking about.

Because the reason you might tell your employer by the way, you know, like, Oh, I'm 15 minutes late. I'm sorry I got stuck in traffic or the traffic. Made me late. That's a way of taking that heat off of you because you could have, especially today's technology, you can get on your phone and see what the traffic is before you even leave the house.

And you can, you know, it kind of goes back to like, well, I could have gone to bed earlier, gotten up earlier, gotten ready sooner. You know, I can go to work early enough to miss the traffic and grab a coffee that's a block away from work and read a book or something. You know, like there are so many things you can do to take ownership of that.

Yes. But I would like to think of a situation that is not the traffic thing. Only because as someone who practices radical honesty and is very careful about their phrasing, I feel like with trivial things like that mm-hmm. , I have actually taken those extra steps to like, take ownership and like whoever I'm telling it to like doesn't give a fuck.

They're like, well, yeah. They're like, if you just tell people that you're late because of traffic, most people are just gonna be like, Oh yeah. Okay. It's all good. Right. And I'm just trying to think of like, what are more higher stake situations that would be you know, that would play out similarly?

Well, I think I'm having a hard time drawing specific examples right now, but there's moments, for instance, in parenting where you maybe had an intention of the way that you wanted to raise your kids. And so talking about like heavier stake type things, you know, I saw myself as being a certain type of father and the type of father that I really was, was different than what I had imagined.

And I think for a long time I would blame a lot of external circumstances for that. And usually it just came to, well, I can't, you know, I couldn't afford a certain lifestyle, so I wasn't as available for my kids as I wanted to be cuz I was working two or three jobs and was having a hard time paying bills and those types of situations.

And I can sort of start to point the finger outward on a lot of those kind of circumstances. But that doesn't excuse me, from not being more present for my kids during their formative years. Yeah. You know? And so That's a hard one, honey. It is hard, but it's, it's also a little bit hard. It's also, I can't really pin it to one thing.

Sure. But I did ask for a higher risk. Yeah. Alternative. And there it was. So, . But getting back to what I was talking about as far as like how it's received from other people versus how it's received internally, is that I think that practicing those, that phrasing with the traffic example, something low stakes like that, and continuing to flex that muscle and work work, the condition of taking ownership for things can then begin to carry over to larger aspects of your life.

And I'm a firm believer that we, we are molded by our external circumstances often through, you know, the thing that comes up a lot in conversation these days is childhood trauma. That just seems to be a topic that's really out there and common and there's memes going all over, you know, social media about it and that kind of thing.

But we are also programming ourselves. We're affecting ourselves. We're a, a strange creature that can. Be affected by ourselves. And it's kind of a weird thing, like we are the cause and the effect of certain things, you know? And do you just mean in terms of like, we have the power to, to change our thinking?

Yes. So in the book called The Brain, that changes itself. Mm-hmm. , it's the whole theme of that whole book is that sometimes therapeutic measures of a brain disorder, for instance, can literally be changed by just changing the way you think, like with intention. In my interview on the podcast that I was on last week that I had mentioned earlier the host of that show is a psychologist, and so I was talking about this aspect of forming new grooves.

And we all tend to form sort of ruts in our brain that makes us think a certain way. To the point where it's autopilot. We're, we're effortlessly in this way of thinking. And the longer we do that, the deeper the grooves get. Mm-hmm. . And so it starts to feel like an inherent trait. But we started down that path by choice at some point.

Or another way to put it is we can choose to cut new paths and new grooves. Yes. Then that become easier and easier the more we practice it. And he pointed out that there's science behind that and it's called dendrites . That's, that's the kind of the terminology for these pathways of the brain that literally rewire with practice D rights.

Yeah. Okay. That's cool. Groove. Yeah. Grooves sounds better than that.  . But where was I going with this? So I think that Oh yeah. Being received by other people, that's one thing. Like if people look up to you because you're someone who takes ownership for your own shit when you make a mistake and you own up to it.

That's one aspect. But the other aspect is you can form new patterns of thinking that change the way that you will behave in the future. And that is, to me, even more powerful because it's not just whether or not you're accepted by other people in someone who takes ownership or makes excuses, but you can actually change the way that you take care of your life.

Oh, yeah. Manage your own life because you start to take ownership and realize that life isn't just happening to you. Well, and hand in hand with self ownership is integrity. Mm-hmm. . And that is something that I don't know about you, but that concept was not really something that I can recall being taught.

Using that word in terms of like setting intentions for myself and following through with them. And I, you know, taking it back to the fitness world, which is like, you know, kind of the point of this podcast I really learned that through athletics mm-hmm.  that I was only gonna get what I put into it.

Mm-hmm. , right? Yeah. And I know that you had, you know, gone into this topic with a note saying something like, you only you can do your own reps. Mm-hmm. . And I think that the gym was such a perfect platform to, to develop this, especially as a young adult. I, I started CrossFit when I was, I don't know, maybe

18, 18, 19, and. You know, when you're at of that age and you're going to school and you're learning to balance your own finances and you're less reliant on your parents, you know, everybody's story's different, but that was mine. And, you know, learning to stand on my own two feet and, you know, no longer being able to lean on my parents in the same way that I always had.

I just think it was really valuable to be in a structure that demanded that of me. Mm-hmm. , you know, when it comes to your finances or like learning how to manage relationships on your own, like romantic relationships in your early twenties, gosh, there's so many fuck ups that happen and so many ways to mess up and difficult lessons to learn.

But the cool thing about gyms and like working with a coach and being in a group it was kind of like a safe place to fall. It was like a safe place to learn. And also to. You know, manage yourself, but with the guidance of someone there. So I guess I'm just thinking about like, you know, in CrossFit there's a lot of like ways to experiment.

There are a lot of progressions for different movements and you know, there's a particular stimulus at the, the exercise or the workout for that day is posing. And if you kind of make the wrong choices in your progressions, like I was so excited when I could finally do pull ups prescribed that I didn't care if it took me like 10 whole minutes to get through a set of, you know, 15 or something.

I would be super stubborn and really want to like impress everyone around me that I could do them, but I was not getting the right stimulus from the workout at all, you know? Mm-hmm. . So I guess that's just kind of where my mind goes in terms of the athletic world of how. You can really learn self ownership and integrity in, you know, a public setting too, where it's very easy to be egocentric.

It's very easy to wanna show off or maybe push yourself beyond your current abilities. Yeah, that's just something that came up for me. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Well, I think that Jim is such a great illustration of self ownership because that whole idea of that no one else can do your reps for you is illustrated so cleanly like in other parts of your life.

Complex, you know you've mentioned relationships and even to a lesser degree, finances can sometimes be very psychologically complex. Whereas the gym is just simple. Did you do the work or did you not do the work? Mm-hmm. , because that just determines if you're gonna get results or not. And Noma, it doesn't matter who your coach is if you're not doing the work.

Yeah.  like it, you really know that it comes down to you that you're the only one that can move the needle on that. And so I think it's a beautiful example, but then to, to broaden that out and apply it to other areas of your life, I think takes a lot of introspection, perhaps ironically, accountability to someone else.

Even though we're talking about self ownership mm-hmm. , I think that having somebody who can hold your feet to the fire and, and. And really keep you honest in certain circumstances could be very valuable. Of course, that's a very special relationship because I think most of us can't take that kind of criticism or don't want to take that kind of criticism.

And it may be a delicate thing to communicate to someone that you love also. Like, well, you're complaining about this external circumstance, but did you consider that this is you? You know, that's, that's hard. That's a very hard thing to point out. And it's always, you know, within the scope of when we're confiding in somebody, are we just seeking validation and support, or are we actually willing to problem solve?

I always think that that's so important to, to preface a conversation with Never Happens. But I feel like that is, say it never happens, but you don't think so. Well, you know, with you and I, I think we had these kind of conversations so early on in our relationship that we don't have to clarify that anymore.

Or maybe that's a mistake from, Well, I wouldn't worry to ask you, like, I'm just needing some support right now. Yes. But I don't think that that's ever explicitly said. I think a lot of us, a lot of us in our just general, you know, relationships with our coworkers, our friends, our parents, whoever typically err on the side of just being there for ultimate support.

Yeah. Because a lot of times our opinions are either not like, received well, or you know, we're just really afraid to hurt the person that we love, so we just don't even go there. Yeah. Gosh. Cuz you know, when somebody's like, Do you really want me to be honest? You know, that you're gonna hear something in a minute that you are not, that you don't wanna gonna like Yeah.

Yeah. You want me honest opinion? No. Yeah. Probably not, but I already, Cause you probably already know it at that point. As soon as that bomb. You can assume that they are not thinking about whatever you're talking about in the same way. Yeah. There's some funny phrases out there like that, right? Like, no offense, but I'm about to say something offensive.

You know, that's something offensive always comes out of the term. No offense. I don't think I've ever uttered that phrase because I don't understand how you're supposed to use that effectively. Just like you said, like why would that make any sense to say at any time? Well, I think it's kind of like, I don't want you to react the way that I know you're going to uhhuh  if you can just like suspend reality for just a second, right?

So I can just like get this off my chest. Yeah, I think that the practice aspect, you know, you were talking about something tangible, some takeaways mm-hmm.  and I think that one thing that you can do or that I can do to. Practice self ownership is also to begin to analyze and recognize patterns in your life.

So it's kind of like, there's some funny sayings out there about like, you know, if you, if you meet three assholes all in the same day, it's probably you, you know, you're probably one of them. You know, that kind of thing. Like, like a common denominator. Yeah. Like you're the common denominator. If if all these things are going wrong or all these people are acting a certain way, then maybe it's not them.

Maybe you, you recognize certain patterns in yourself in that way. So I think that that might be one takeaway from today's podcast that if people are wanting to really develop responsibility and autonomy and, what was the word you used? Agency. Agency. Yeah. To practice that as a skill. Some pattern watching could be effective in that, and it could be, That you have a different problem, which is in the example I gave, maybe you need to change up your association, you know, maybe you're hanging with the wrong crowd kind of thing, Uhhuh.

But if it's a certain pattern of, I don't know not making enough money or not getting the type of respect that you wished you had at work or autonomy or whatever it is, that seems to be an unfulfilling thing that's coming at you from external and really start to analyze, well, is this a common thread for me?

You know, is this the last three jobs I worked at? Did I get that same feeling at all three jobs? Because if, if that's the case, it may not be the jobs, It may be something that you are doing to promote that thing that you actually don't want. So, you know how a few minutes ago you were just, you were saying how self ownership ironically can be developed or like.

Identified and acted upon when it comes to other people, like you were saying. Accountability. Mm-hmm. . A really important lesson that I had learned probably a little late in life is, how to say, I'm sorry. Effectively you know, not dancing around it, not using like language, like, I'm sorry you feel this way,  kind of thing.

But I learned from my mom and my sister, like when things get tense or heated between us, you know, we love each other so much that like, of course when there is friction, like it's just as explosive. And I learned from them. I'm gonna guess I was like, probably like 18 years old, maybe 17, you know? And I was just kind of coming out of my like very.

Difficult to tolerate phase of life that I was not like quick to apologize or to acknowledge other people's feelings. And so I learned really strongly and concretely at that time that, you know, it doesn't matter if I still think that I am right and whoever I need to apologize is wrong. Their feelings are hurt.

I don't want to hurt their feelings. And so saying, I'm sorry right away it's not like just to like sugarcoat or bandaid anything, but it's to like take a moment to acknowledge that, like I said, something that was hurtful to you. And I just want you to know that even in this moment where we're having this tension, I still love you and that's not my intention.

Mm-hmm. . And so I just think learning to say sorry was really important in also like realizing that. We're gonna fuck up as people all the time. Like whether you see failures or mistakes as a bad thing, Right. Assigning a bad or the connotation that it's a bad thing. That's kind of up to you.

But, you know, to be able to be, to have self ownership, I think also comes with resilience too. And so to be able to acknowledge like when you have hurt someone else, or just essentially like being able to understand that the actions and the words that I have have effects, good or bad, you know, potential consequences.

I think that's huge. Mm-hmm. , you know, to not have self-awareness or self ownership, I feel like is kind of like you were saying, external locus of control. You're not seeing how you fit in the equation of it all, you know? Yeah, you, you quickly went over that phrase, but it's really, really powerful. Which one?

I think, well, you just said you just sort of equated self ownership with self-awareness and I think that's huge. You know, you go back to the ancient philosophy over the School of Delphi, you know, it was written over the door, know thyself. And just a nerdy little history lesson on that, that phrase, Do you wanna put that over the door?

And at the gym that would be cool . But apparently that phrase over the school of Delphi was even older and dates back to ancient Egypt and was found again, carved in stone on a big column. And the entire phrase was, Know thyself. And ye shall surely know the gods. Oh yeah. And so it's lots of, lots of stuff to go down in the rabbit hole on that one, but

I think that the main takeaway from it is that it's, it can't be overstated how important it is to be self-aware. Do you think, to know yourself, Do you think that self ownership is possible without self-awareness? Cause my, I would say no. I guess that's my point. That's why I wanted to punctuate what you had just said, you know, really eloquently and you just, it went by real fast.

So I just wanted to point it out. Small details. , I wanted to point it out that self-reflection, self knowledge, and the self knowledge that can only come through action. Particularly, like you can't just sit and pontificate on this forever and think that you're going to improve. You have to practice things and, but remaining self-aware is, is key to self ownership.

Well, so this is kind of like where things get a little sticky for me, I think of self-awareness, self ownership. Well can like kinda lend into the self-acceptance world, which I think we've already addressed this in a podcast because I know we've talked about this a lot, but I think there has to be some sort of language or maybe another term like self blank that alludes to the pliability of it all.

Mm-hmm. , right? There's like this weird air to self-awareness that's like, this is almost like a permanence or this is like a set in stone sort of thing. Yes. And this is the other part where the gym comes in is that we, as we're putting in the work, as we're, you know, becoming stronger, more knowledgeable, you know, changing our breathing patterns, like we are at a different vantage point.

We are a different person. We are at a different stage of our fitness. Mm-hmm.  and. . I mean, that's why the gym is so cool. Like, I think that's why you and I have found each other in the gym too, is that we are so intrigued by these ideas of self progression and evolution and like, we're very eager to take the opportunities.

Mm-hmm. , like of course we would meet in a gym. Like that's the whole point. You know? Yeah. That's the whole point. Yeah. And I'm, I'm kind of reminded my brain's kind of going down this rabbit hole, so this isn't necessarily intended to be a political podcast, but I'm not gonna Oh, my shy away from things that I think are important, and so here we go.

No, no. I was just thinking how there's kind of this zeitgeist of our modern society of what you were talking about, of self-acceptance, and it kind of gets to a point of what you might call radical self-acceptance, because radical seems to be in front of everything nowadays, and well just makes it sound a lot more important.

Well, yeah, but I think it's also indicating that radical self-acceptance is like really, really accepting yourself for real, like everything about yourself and being okay with it. And the, the danger of that is that I. You know so this is kind of picking, picking on leftist ideologies at the moment, but don't worry, I've got something for the other side too.

You're so fair. . So you know, Jordan Peterson pointed out in a speech a while back about like, you don't want to tell a college student that everything about them is okay and acceptable because that's terrible. If you, if you talk to a teenager who feels like shit about themselves and you're saying everything about you is fine, then what do they have to work on?

They're like, What? I can't hear that. Like, I'm garbage. Why is everything this isn't good? Is it saying that it would like normalize that feeling of garbage? Not only that, but the things that are causing, you knows, a lot of times those self image issues are a result of the fact that you. You earned that self image.

You know, there were times in my life where I felt bad about myself and I should have felt bad about myself because I had shitty habits. I wasn't taking responsibility for myself. I wasn't actively pursuing things. I would dream big and make lists and set goals and do all this crap, but I wouldn't actually put in the work.

There's no reason I should have had a good self-image because I wasn't doing the work to earn. Well, you didn't have self image integrity. Yes. And when you don't have integrity, you know it, other people may, you might be able to fake other people out, but you know it. Yeah. You know, if you're not doing what you should be doing, and when I say should, I mean internally, like I want to achieve this thing.

Yeah. Self-imposed. Yeah. It's self-imposed. So I'm not, I'm not talking about societal shoulds or whatever, but if you're not accountable to yourself and you don't have a good self image, There's a reason for that. Like that should be motivation to change, to do something, to take ownership, to make that change.

And I think that in a lot of the left decided ideologies right now, it's like, well, you're perfect the way you are. Everything's great, blah, blah, blah. It's like, no, if you are overweight, yes, you are deserving of love. You're a human being. You have worth, you have, you know, all these things, But to claim that you are incapable of changing or that it would not be optimal for you to get into better shape is a lie.

It's an objective absolute lie, because being overweight is not good for your health. It's, it's the root of most modern diseases is being overfed. And it, that's not to hurt anybody's feelings because like I said, You can still be attractive. You can still be, you know, beautiful and worthy and, and worthy of love and have great relationships.

And this isn't to to mean any anybody's character or anything like that, but I'm just saying to accept faults about yourself as if it's just an inherent quality of being who you are. Mm-hmm.  is the same as saying, Well, I'm never gonna take responsibility for this. Well, it's very important to identify like what.

What is troublesome there? Like as someone who had grown up very much like outwardly criticized for their body from my peers at a young age. Like, it very quickly taught me that I had, my aesthetic was not of like, worthy to be friends with. It wasn't worthy to date. Mm-hmm. . And I'm not just like making assumptions.

Those things were actually said to me before. But. It also, you know, it, Oh gosh. This is one of those like mutually exclusive things that I have trouble kind of sorting in my mind. But even though yes, I was like worthy of love and friendship and respect, you know, not to be humiliated, Right? Yeah. Doesn't mean that I was healthy.

Right? That's a totally different story. Right. I, Noah wasn't, I was not an active young person. I was very much left alone to do whatever I wanted after school and like my food intake was not monitored and things like that. So those are not mutually exclusive. Did I say that correctly? I'm not sure.

Damn it. . I really thought that I had figured out how to use this phrase incorrectly. Ignore me in that. But essentially like when it comes to this idea of self-acceptance I think it's important to leave room for.  improvement. Like improvement? Mm-hmm.  is not a bad thing. I think it's been beaten into so many of us, like we've talked about leveling up burnout and how that can just totally be exhausting to like constantly be chasing ideals, whether they're imposed on us from other people or our own mm-hmm.

But it's also not enough of a reason to. Drop all pursuits and be like, All right, well everything as is is always gonna work for me. That's not true either, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. , Yeah. This really circles back to the self-awareness thing as well. And just so that I don't lose the opportunity, I said that I had something for the other side too.

Yes. Please just balance it out.  just another analogy on the conservative, you know, like the, say like the Christian conservative side of the political spectrum, we see really a similar thing happening with the idea of original sin and that kind of thing. Well, I was born a sinner or I have this trait and you know, Jesus will forgive me.

It's, it can be an excuse for bad behavior, even if it's repeated and repeated to play a, a victim role of I was born this way, or this is just an inherent aspect of being a sinner, the, the human condition. And I think sometimes that can be a crutch to put a limiter on people who aren't taking responsibility to be able to change an aspect of themselves.

I personally have seen that with aspects of addiction. You know, an addict will be quick to men to point out the genetic predispositions and those kind of things. Well, those things are real and those things are real. But a, a genetic predisposition is not a, it doesn't excuse you from taking responsibility for picking up a beer and lifting it to your own face.

Well, especially if you know about it even before, like if you are a person who is not an addict, who has a family member or parent who was and knows that, and have been educated, have been educated, had been encouraged, like even more so, there would be an opportunity to lean in a different direction. Yeah.

I mean, it would be hard, but the op, the option is there. It's not an absolute. Yeah. And of course we're talking about addiction, which is extremely complex and I, you know, I, I really firmly believe that addictions are kind of a perfect storm of a few bad things. Genetics is like a part of it. And then trauma obviously is like, people who are addicted to substances particularly are escaping from something else that's worse, you know?

That's kind of how they go down that road typically in my experience. But yeah, I was gonna say, I don't have a lot to say on that subject, but you have experience. Yeah, and I don't claim to be any sort of expert. I'm not a psychologist or therapist or anything like that, but I've been, you know, I grew up with family member who had addiction and abuse and that kind of thing, and then in previous relationships.

And so I've seen a lot of it firsthand and you get a lot of these same type of excuses of, well, there's a genetic predisposition and I encounter these traumas and that's why I drink. Well, it it's really just like the traffic analogy. Yeah. The traffic is. That you didn't lie by saying that traffic made you work, you know, late for work, but it is also true that you could have done other things, you know, and had better foresight and better planning, et cetera.

Totally. Especially if you're chronically, like I know people who are chronically late and they still use the same excuses. It's like mom sensing a pattern here, and I, it's the same with addicts that I've dealt with in my life where the excuses are real and the reasons are real, but there's a lack of self ownership to take responsibility for the fact that they still have autonomy, they still have choices despite the fact that they're dealing with genetics and trauma.

Whatnot. Totally. I have an example, I don't know if I've mentioned this story before on the podcast, but the very first time I got into nutrition counseling, I don't believe I was ready for it because I had not really, it was like very early into Weightlift. Seriously. It was when I had just moved to Portland.

So that was a big reason that I wanted to move was because there was a team here and I had a friend who had met at the Olympic Training Center who was like really talking this team up and I got into nutrition counseling and there wasn't a lot of follow through on my end. I wasn't really following things in the way that I should have and was like very easy to hide things or like manipulate the numbers that I was putting in.

So my coach is not getting accurate information from me for one, and then. After a while, gosh, this is such an embarrassing story. After a while you know, I was not seeing results and no shit guy wasn't doing the right work. But I kind of figured like, okay, I'm signing up for a nutrition program, like that should be enough to get to where I wanna go.

Right? And so I had actually blamed my coach, like, you, like have taken all this money from me and like I haven't seen any results. And oh gosh, it's so horrible to think about like that. I had the audacity to like, not only think this, but like to actually say it out loud and like throw it back in this person's face whose like professional job it was to like guide me in the right direction.

And just because my ass wasn't getting in with the program, I thought it was their fault. Mm-hmm. . And that's just like such a wild place for me to think about having been, because now I would almost lean like too far in the other direction where I'd be like, Super guilty and feel terrible and apologize and you know, middle ground would be really nice

But yeah, unfortunately with this coach we didn't work together for very long before this happened and what kind of broke the camel's back for me is that I had purged my food and, you know, that was something that I struggled with as a young person. I purged my food a lot and I was like, you know, not only did you take all my money, but like you have brought back this terrible dynamic that I had with food where I would do this.

And so I'm not exactly sure like what the turning point was. My guess is that I was, you know, training in the gym and like realizing that like I have responsibility for myself. And then I ended up working with another coach and that. Was stupendous. Mm-hmm. , I really don't think it had anything to do with the coach.

I think it was my willingness and my readiness to be able to really look at myself like, obviously like purging your food is an act of like discomfort or shame or a compulsion that's not good for you. Mm-hmm.  Any, either way you spin it. But I really think through weightlifting, like I started to gain some traction on like, pride in myself and that is what allowed me to take self ownership.

Yeah. More than anything. I mean, when I say weightlifting saves lives, I really believe it. I really, really believe it. It shows you things about yourself, like I've said before, already, like in a very controlled environment that feels safe and can really push you to. You know, see your greatest strengths and really realize them, but also have to face your faults.

And that can be with personal dynamics, that can be with honesty, that can be with your body, you know? Mm-hmm.  super, super potent. Yeah. Thank you for sharing all that. Yeah. It feels a little bit weird to be recording it, but I I truly believe that my greatest struggles will also be my greatest work.

Mm-hmm. . So I, I anticipate things like that to, to come out more. . I really appreciate that about you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. You reminded me of saying that I'm not gonna get right , but I can paraphrase and it's basically that your, your struggles or what you may even look at as your downfalls or detriment mistakes are what makes you uniquely qualified to help other people who are in those same positions.

Totally. So I think it's very valuable for you to share that, So I appreciate that a lot. The other thing that you just triggered in me is a, what we were talking about, I believe in the last podcast, and I've mentioned it on social medias and such, is this whole idea of fitness being 80% nutrition and 20% mm-hmm.

training or working out. And what you, the story you just told is an illustration for exactly what I was talking about. Is that I, I don't buy that because it dismisses the psychological impact of working out when you physically move your body and you are creating an intention and then following through it with it, with actual action.

You know, I don't know how else to describe it, to really emphasize the point that you're literally moving your body, which is a physical representation of your mental intention. And that is so powerful because, like you said, it's empowering for you as an individual. It gives you confidence, it gives you momentum, and it, it, it teaches you self ownership, which is the whole theme that we're talking about here.

And it can produce a motivation for you to eat well at that point. Because you start to change your relationship with what you view food as. It's something that can be pleasurable, but it's also fuel to do the things that you want to do physically. Yes, yes. And theres this carryover that I, I mean, I feel like I'm just scratching the surface.

When you train consistently, it does amazing, amazing things for you psychologically and and your relationships. Everything is, Well, it's so hard to put into words. Yeah. It really is. Unless you've been there, like, I mean, even if you have been there, it's really hard to put it in the word Yeah. Put or to express it to someone who maybe isn't there.

Yeah. But I guess I hope that this, another thing this podcast does is like just get everybody to get moving on something. Yeah, absolutely. You know, the philosophy of fitness is that we're trying to take lessons that we learn in the gym and then see how it can apply to other areas of, of life. But you can also look at that as an inverse or look at it as a leveraging tool.

You know, I look at the gym as a Petri dish that I get to do experiments in and then see how I can carry it over to other areas of your life. And, and every one of you who's listening to this can do the same thing. Mm-hmm. , you know, use your exercise program as a method of inquiry to learn about yourself, not just your body, but all aspects of yourself.

Your accountability to yourself, your consistency, your, your aim, your abilities, your empowerment. You know, that to develop that self ownership muscle that just goes on and on and on and on and on. It's a deep, deep hole that you can use fitness for this if you allow yourself to analyze it in that way, and to use it as that tool and not just some chore that you have to do.

Yeah. And like I just experience it fully. Yeah. You know, really like, you know, interact with the people who are training around you. Like, gosh, I always like when I would visit my parents and like, go to 24 Hour Fitness with my dad. It, like, everybody in there looks so miserable. I know that is probably not the case.

I'm sure that this is, like, it really works for a lot of people. Mm-hmm. . But just knowing what I could get out of training among people and like having conversations between, you know, sets and things like that. Like, some of my very best friends have come out of the gym. Yeah. They really have. Yeah. And when I see people like actively avoiding each other, like, have you ever had the experience where you like go up to a machine and somebody's on it and they're like, Hey, just curious, like how much longer you're gonna be on there?

And they're like, Oh, no, no. You can have it. Like, they're trying to avoid talking to you as much as possible that they're willing to stop what they're doing. Yeah. And go onto something else. Yeah. That I feel like just kind of like contin, like continues the narrative of like, Fitness being like a chore, like you were saying, Like it just makes it like an uncomfortable thing.

Yeah. It doesn't, it's not always gonna be uncomfortable. It's gonna be your favorite thing in the world. Mm-hmm. , you know? Yeah. You can cra it really can be, Yeah. You can develop a craving for wanting to get there and do it. Yes. And that just takes practice as well. But I think it's hard for people to believe that if they're, if they have not experienced it, it's like, Yeah.

Right. Like Netflix sounds way better than going to the gym. Well, if you go to our gym you can do both at the same time. Cause we have a television down there now. But anyway, it was more for music videos. But I will admit to having had a Netflix on while being on the, on the rowing machine a couple times.

But I know that we also had a conversation or a podcast episode about the joy of Of training and like also finding things that resonate with us. So like, yeah, it's gonna feel like a chore if you're doing something that is not fun to you. But if you, you know, join a team or just find something that's very unique that like peaks your interest, you know, like that goes so far, then that relationship can really deepen in that self ownership and that integrity with yourself is like all the more easier to come by because you are genuinely interested or genuinely excited about it.

Yeah. You know? Have there any, like any sports or any physical activities that you look at and you're like, I think I'd love that parkour? No way. Yeah. There was a. In my late thirties that I started it, and even then I felt like I was kind of old to be starting something like that. But I'm nodding. Even though I am creeping up on 50 now, I still want to get back to it because it is so fun to be able to it's hard to describe.

It's a sense there, I mean, there's a, it's called free running, you know, parkour is like the French word for it, but what they, it's called the sport is like free running and it feels, you feel free, like when you No obstacle in my way. Yeah. Yeah. It's just, and the, the idea behind the techniques of it is to develop efficiency.

Mm-hmm.  and so fun. So things do feel easier the better you get. It's a little bit difficult to describe, but I did get to a point where I was able to, we had these like climbing rocks next to our gym. It was really cool cuz we were next to a park. Like real rocks. Yeah. Well they were, I think they were sculpted, I think they were manmade, but they were like bouldering.

So big ones like the ones at my folks house. So they had, Yeah, they were like that only they have wood chips around them. So they were meant to be like, you could see there's like handholds on some of them. Okay. And so we used to do workouts in the gym where we'd like run down to 'em and you'd have to go up and down the rock four times or something.

No way. Yeah. And we did like a burpy ladder. I love your programming. It was so fun. So we'd, we'd go up the rock, down the rock, do 10 burpees, and then you go up the rock twice and do nine burpees and you up the rock three times. And do you know we had stairs next to my gym. Not as fun. Yeah. . But the rock was really cool.

And then but the rock was I think I'm guessing around 10 feet tall. Like I couldn't reach the top of it if I was staying next to it, even with my hand. And I'm almost six feet tall, so I think it was around 10 feet tall. And I got to the point where I could jump off of that rock and land in like a summer salt.

So you, No way. Oh, on rock on What'd you say? Wood chips? Yeah, wood chips. So there's techniques that I was learning and kind of self-teaching cuz there was no program other than lots of YouTube videos at the time. But yeah, I would definitely be interested in getting back to that. Right now. I need to get my joints in a place where a happier place.

Yes. I was gonna say like, getting up off the couch doesn't feel so bad. , . That's how, you know, you're over the age of 30. I guess so. But so there's another aspect of ownership. Well first of all, you, you had talked about the gym and. And getting to know yourself through the work. Mm-hmm. , And it kind of reminds me that, you know, we were discussing earlier how you can't have self ownership if you don't have self knowledge, but it Self-awareness.

Yeah. Or self-awareness. And it works the other way too. Like the more you develop self ownership, the more you know about yourself. Because if you're constantly blaming external circumstances, you don't know what you're made of. You don't test yourself to know what you're made of. So there's really like this feedback loop that can occur when you start practicing this intentionally.

Yeah. What were you gonna say? Well, I was just pointing at you because that phrasing of like, you find out what you're made of. Mm-hmm. . I always write that in my bio because I feel like that was the arena where that happened. Yeah. And like, my feelings of like being capable of something or like knowing my worth or whatever, like that was all.

That all was like cultivated in the gym for sure. And I'm sure this will be its own episode too. Like there are dangers to attaching your entire self worth and your identity to who you are in the gym. Mm-hmm. . There definitely is a dark side to that that I'll be able to speak to at a later time. But yes, it was the arena in which it happened.

Yeah. So the other aspect that I was gonna bring up of self ownership is a theme that I've been hearing about lately and I've heard about it before in leadership seminar circles. What's that? Which is extreme ownership. Oh. Meaning you are going to take responsibility for things that seriously are not your fault.

Is this radical ownership? Yes. Radical self ownership. But the idea behind that is to. Develop yourself as, first of all, someone who has even more agency because of this way of thinking, but also setting you up as a leader. Someone who can lead other people, whether it's in an organization or you know, oh, a hobby or whatever.

Or as a coach even, is to take ownership. So a small example of this, you had mentioned how you blamed your nutrition coach for you not being compliant basically. Mm-hmm. . Right. And as a, That is correct. As a coach and as a trainer, I've had that experience as well. I've had people who, who like quit because they weren't getting results.

And I'm like, Well, you're not doing half the shit I tell you to do, so, duh. You know, I, of course I don't talk to my clients that way. No, we would never. But it has come to mind. Yeah. Many a times. Yeah. It's a really hard position to be in. But an example of extreme ownership in that situation would be as the coach, what am I doing?

That is not leading that person to be compliant. How can I be a better leader to help that person to be more compliant so that the programming I'm giving them is more effective? I like that Phrasing better. Does that mean changing the programming to something that's more enjoyable, more approachable?

Does that mean giving them more accountability texts or phone calls? Does that mean going to their house and cooking a meal with them? Like really, really, really try to take ownership and say, This is my fault. Even if it's not, gosh, you are giving me so many doubts about my life choices right now.

Well, and it's not, and I'm not saying that you believe that it's your fault. Like there can be a recognition of like, well, this person isn't compliant with the program. That's why they're not getting results. But if I take ownership, if I pretend like, this is all me, what else can I do to help this person?

Well, I'd say that's almost like when you play devil's advocate, Like you're just kind of posing another way of thinking about it. Mm-hmm. . I kind of like that, like, like I said, you have me doubting a lot of like, my current choices right now and like my abilities as a coach and it, it's definitely, now that I've heard it, I'm not gonna un unhear it.

I'm gonna think about this a lot more. I'm sure. Can you elaborate? Yeah. Well, so one of my newer ventures through our business is online coaching. And that's not really like, My arena of expertise like I had said in the beginning of this podcast, Oh, you have a lady bug on your shoulder. Cute. Hi, lady.

Like I said at the beginning of this recording you know, being a coach in front of a class felt like very performative to me, and I think that that is one of my strong suits as a coach. Oh my gosh. There we go. , that was one of my strong suits as a coach, and I think that was where a lot of my, like, I don't know, my great reputation as a coach came from was like keeping it really entertaining and mm-hmm.

Really high energy and. Relaxed and funny and like, I don't know. I've been to classes where the coach is like super militant and I'm like, no. Mm-hmm. , this does not work for me. I think you, you're such a great coach. I mean, I loved after I hired you, before I even knew you, I just loved the way you coached because you were such a great blending of actually coaching, you know, like really being involved and correcting people's faults and in their movements and scaling for people.

You don't, you're a really active coach, but you're approachable and fun and there's conversation and people are just getting a kick out of it. And that's, cuz it's my favorite place to be. It's like, it's like inviting people to my home. But I'm, I'm guilty of being a little over technical. Like, I'm there to do a job.

I'm doing it. And it's not that I don't love my clients, it's just that sometimes I forget to chill out. A you're forgetting though, like the year most recent experience as a coach in a gym was. You know, how do I describe this structured? It was incredibly structured to the point where we did not have any creative control, which is kind of unusual.

I feel like working in mom and pop gyms, they always wanna give their coaches an opportunity to shine at what they do best. And so a lot of times that's like creating programming or whatever. But we were both working together at a gym where there was no room for that. It was not, except in workshops that we taught that we, Yes.

Those were so fun. Yeah. But we also had to squeeze an absurd amount of programming in an hour. You know, if you were off by five minutes, like you're fucked. Like the whole thing is squandered. Everything's gonna be out of control. So, you know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say that that's your normal coaching.

I've seen you coach and your. Captivating honey. Captivating, Hang on every word. You know what I'm talking about? When I filmed your Indian Club's workshop mm-hmm. , I was like, my mouth was open the whole time I was drooling. I was just like, so I was hanging on every word you were saying. Well, thank you.

And I didn't even sign up for the thing, but gosh, what was I talking about again? Oh, performative. Mm-hmm.  and something. Well, we were talking about Oh, what my, what? Yes, I know now. So I'm currently online coaching. Mm-hmm. , this is a new venture for me, so I don't have a lot of confidence in it yet, and it still feels very much like a test run and kind of try to figure out what, what will work.

And it's tricky because, you know, I'm not in the room with the client. I can't adjust on the fly. And adjusting on the fly is like one of the most important things that you can have in your arsenal as a coach because You know, someone's experience is gonna be how do I describe this? Like, you just have to be able to make adjustments, like based on their injuries.

A lot of times I have gone on walks with clients instead of doing their program training because they're so stressed out and this would be a better way to use their time or, Yeah. I've done that before too. Yeah. You, or you're just constantly being faced with things that you weren't expecting. You've got a group of 30 people and like, I don't know, one of them has come in as like never done crat before because they didn't read the schedule, that we didn't offer any beginner in this particular class or something like that.

Mm-hmm. . So being able to think on the fly is really important, but when you are an online coach, you're kind of like delivering programming. Fingers cross that they'll do it  and then you're responding to videos that they send me back. But it's not in real time. So, you know, they can't really implement my coaching until the next training that they have.

And that's all assuming that the programming is engaging and all the things that you were saying like I need to consider you know, what can I do better to create compliance. Mm-hmm. , and this is kind of a tricky thing for coaches too because, or just really any entrepreneur who's got a product, you know, you wanna appeal to a niche but you also wanna stay true to your craft and your form and what you find valuable.

And so you kind of figure like, Alright, well whoever can't hang with this, like, can fuck off. And like, I'll just only work with people who wanna do what I wanna do. Yeah. Which, , I feel like I tend to lean in that direction mostly cuz I don't like being, you know, contorted into something that I don't believe in or can't keep up with or whatever for whatever reason.

But now I feel like I'm gonna be haunted by this question because I'm gonna be paying attention to kind of like these different indicators of not proficiency, but like their, your effectiveness. Yeah. Yeah. I, and like using that athlete's like experience and cues to do my job better. Mm-hmm. , which of course is what we're doing as coaches all the time, but when you're working with people in person, it's just so much easier Yeah.

To like, rapidly adjust. It just feels. Kind of like what I hate about credit cards with this online coaching, it just feels like there's a lot of lag time. Mm-hmm.  and like bigger cracks for things to fall through. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. The feedback isn't instant. Yeah. It's uncomfy, but I'm really happy to get the practice.

Yeah. Well, and your online coaching so far has been great. I mean, effective and in terms of like still building a relationships and that kinda thing. Yeah. Yeah. You're right. So it's happening. It's just a, a different delivery system than you're used to. And circumstances are always changing too. Like just because this last program went so well doesn't mean that the next one will.

Yeah. You know, like it's just something that always needs evaluating all the time. Yeah. I'm really looking forward to that aspect with the Lim workshop, or what am I trying to say? Course, the Lim course that we're gonna be doing by the time this. Podcast heirs will probably be in the application phase for the next cohort that will start January 1st, or, you know, first week of January.

Mm-hmm. . So the idea behind this is just to clue everybody in, is that we're going to take on a batch of clients, if you will, and have them go through a 90 day course, which is the Lym method that I describe in my book. If you're listening to those podcasts, you'll be hearing my book being read as well.

And a lot of the things, there's a lot of overlap between that and the philosophy of fitness. We've already talked about, you know, process goals versus results oriented goals and that kind of thing. And we're gonna be leading that cohort of people through an online community. Learning the Lym method and also having a fitness program that they can use sort of as a learning tool.

We were just talking about this, like going into the gym and actually learning about yourself and, and all the carryover of self ownership and, you know, knowing how to manage and get a motivation and feeling empowered and all that stuff that comes from the gym. So we're, we're going to be doing a program for all of those people.

That's the exercise program with modifications and all that kind of thing. And then also a nutrition component, some nutrition guidance. I'm actually looking forward to that first cohort as being a real learning experience for us as well, because of course, as a coach, I want every single person to be successful.

I also know as an, an experienced entrepreneur, Not every person will be successful.  there will do our best. You should know that as a coach already too . We'll, we'll do our best to get everybody like through the 90 days and have some life transforming quality. But I know that there will be somebody, maybe one person that kind of falls through the cracks and I'm kind of looking forward to experiencing that in a way that I can get feedback to know how to deliver these systems better because, And also in a new arena for sure, like the rules are so different.

The circumstances are so different. Yeah. So it's just like you're saying like it's a, it's a different experience to be a coach remotely than it is in person. But I'm kind of looking forward to this first cohort of the lym. Workshop because that is gonna be such a good experience for us to grow. It's kind of like our, it's, it's almost like a workout for us to be able to start training in this certain way as coaches, you know, and to be able to get feedback on how to help people be more engaged.

How to help them be a better support for each other in the community and build relationships even though it's online. Cuz that's, you know, if you look at social media, that's a tricky thing to build relationships online. Or if you have the unfortunate experience of dating apps and trying to get to know people over a text, that's, it's sucks.

And so I want this experience to be really enriching for everyone involved and really empowering and to come out the other side having. Meaningful change. And I look forward to the learning experience of what it's like for the people who are struggling. So you're talking about learning experience as a coach and something that I'm wondering about in terms of like this self ownership arena that we're in and talking about, So, you know, you're hoping to get feedback and that might illuminate, you know, what you're doing really well or what you need to improve as feedback usually encompasses.

And you know, when it comes to ownership, like I feel like you also have to kind of question like, well, what am I willing to change too? Right. We've talked about like doing what we do well ourselves and then outsourcing the things that we aren't, because we don't always wanna, like, gosh, this feels almost like contradictory to what we've been saying, , but we also don't necessarily wanna like push ourselves as pegs through the wrong shaped holes.

Right. Well, I think but we're also talking about how like, Radical self-acceptance isn't great either. Mm-hmm. . So there has to be some other components in there that like encourage change. Well, I think a good balanced view of that, that you could try to develop is to recognize where you're weak and then make a conscious decision of,

in that weakness, am I avoiding it because I feel uncomfortable, I e a fear, or is it something that I would be more effective to be helping other people if I outsourced it? Mm. So you know, one example of what you're talking about, like instead of changing our program, if it's not working for a third of the group, why isn't it working for that third of the group?

Is it the program or is it that we just brought the wrong people into it? You know, maybe the solution for helping that third is to help them find a different program that works better or a different coach or a different method all together that isn't really what we're doing, but something that we could refer out to somebody else.

Like there's ways of taking ownership that don't necessarily mean that you have to mold yourself to the world and everything that the world demands of you. Yeah. You know, but I think it can be approached with consciously, like I said, is it something I need to step up and do better at, and I'm just fearful, or it's uncomfortable or I'm feeling lazy, or when, whatever that is.

Or is it something that really I could. Pass off to somebody else who's more qualified, more skillful, or, or maybe even just enjoys doing this type of work better than I do. Mm-hmm. . And then as a responsible leader, that's the thing you wanna do is is defer that to someone who's more qualified or better at it or whatever.

So it's it's definitely not a black and white line, but I think that you can think of it in terms like that. And it's still taking ownership by saying, I'm not good at this. I, I remember I went to this leadership seminar when I was 16, I think, and Mrs. Wetzel, our, our music teacher, she was freaking awesome,

And she took the the band, I think it was just the honor band, Like it was a small group of us, six or seven to Portland to go to a leadership seminar weekend. And the guy who ran the seminar, I think I can find him online. If I can, I'll, I'll link to him cuz he's still around doing this. But he was a music teacher who went into sort of this leadership niche of teaching students to become leaders.

And so it was this whole weekend of just inundated with all this stuff. And I remember that I got chosen to they split the, the. Class up and it was like 200 people. I mean, it's a big like seminar type thing, right? And they split the students up into two groups. And then we had two leaders that were supposed to accomplish some game, and I think it was ordering people in the line based on their age, right down to their birthdate kind of thing.

Mm-hmm. . But then there were certain rules that made it hard, like you couldn't talk or something like that. , like, I can't remember all the rules right now, but I had in my head this plan of like, Ooh, this is the way to get that job done really, really fast. So I'm like, have my hand up to be one of the leaders and, and I got chosen and literally like my first interaction with like the first two people in my group and he's like, Wait, wait, wait.

That's against the rules. You can't do that thing. And he stopped the clock. He's like, and made an announcement. He's like, You know that no shit, this thing that he's doing over here you can't do. And I sort of panicked, but I just looked at the first person in my. Or I looked at my whole group and I was like, Does anybody have any ideas on how we can do this?

And and he stopped the clock again and he is like, Wait a minute, wait a minute. I just wanna point out like, this is what we, genius. This is what leaders do. They don't just like take it all on and then try to be the big shot and. If it doesn't work out, they make excuses and try to be a bigger shot.

Like he just went to everybody else in the group and like, where can we go? Like, that's, you're asking the people who are supposed to be following you, to lead you in this example. And I, it, for me, it was just a moment of panic. I didn't know what else to do, , but he pointed it out. But it was a moment of genius too,

But he, he pointed it out as a leadership quality, which of course made me feel great at the time. It was a really cool experience for me, but I've never forgotten that. Like in all of my attempts of putting myself into leadership positions, it's something that has stuck with me so well over the years to first consult the group.

Like, I might not take your opinion. I might not, you know, I might not follow, but why not utilize people who are better at certain qualities than, than you have? Yes. Duh. Isn't this obvious? Yeah. But no, it's not. You know, I've worked in so many gyms and you know, you said you've never forgotten this lesson, and I can attest to that as somebody who worked for you.

I have been in your meetings that you facilitated with your coach and you totally throw things out to the group, just like you said, and I love you so much in this moment, . But man, when I see that, that doesn't happen in organizations that I work for it's a really telling sign that like, I'm not going anywhere here.

You know, like this is a dead end for me. Whether it's like an actual, like movement in, or the evolution of my job or just like in my own head, like. I'm checking out. Yeah. If I don't feel like there are possibilities like that, so Yeah. And I feel like, gosh, I love you. I love you too. I think that there's a mistaken idea that when leaders don't consult their followers, if you will for advice or for help in, in those types of arenas, I think it's usually taken as a sign of arrogance.

And I think sometimes it is, but I think often it's a sign. Low self-esteem or like fear because they don't want, don't you think arrogance comes from low self-esteem? I mean, it is a, it's a strange dichotomy there for sure. I think it's just like a, what is it? Like a wolf in sheeps clothing kind of thing.

Yeah. Yeah. I feel like they appear to be really opposing, but they are one in the same. Yeah. But I think there's a, a fear that they will lose their role as a leader if they show that weakness that they don't have the answers. You know? It's so sad that that would be a thought because I have so much respect.

And not just respect for people who will do that, but like a deep desire to help them. Yeah. When I get the impression that my opinion is not even interested in being heard, like you were saying, like you might not take their advice, but you're gonna hear it. Yeah. If I know that, like they don't care to hear my opinion, like I, it feels like a very.

Like combative thing, like everyone's in their own boat. I'm looking out for myself now. Yeah. Cause so are you. Yeah. And it's funny cuz many, many, many years later, in fact this was only about six years ago, I was reading a book on management. And I hate most books on management cuz they just suck if it's all dry.

And a lot of times it comes across as manipulative, the things that they teach on leadership. And I can see that they put this in another way, which is like, you can actually, this is how you get people to buy in. Like if you're just top down telling your organization how it's gonna change, you're gonna get resistance all the whole way.

But if you want people to buy into your idea and your leadership, you ask them, you get them involved in the decision and then you may lead them toward the thing you already planned before the conversation. And to me that's kind of a manipulative. Version of what I was just talking about. I think it's good to, to get honest feedback and actually use, you know, that information rather than going to a meeting as a leader and say, Well, I'm going to do X, Y, Z and so I'm gonna get a bunch of feedback from them and then convince them that it was their idea to do X, Y, and z , You know, that's ew.

It's like the manipulative version. So yeah, there's a lot  aspect to both sales and leadership that I think could be twisted in those kind of ways where they get a bad rap. But to me that's not deferring ownership. Self ownership though to me that is stepping up. It is stepping up as a leader to ask the opinions of other people or to delegate something that you're not good at.

Well, it's self-awareness, right? Yeah. If you know that you have shortcomings or you know, don't feel confident to approach whatever it is that you're approaching you know, solely on your own, then yeah, you're gonna need to recruit some other minds who have strengths that you don't. Yeah. And then the other aspect of leadership when it comes to self ownership is that even if it's not your fault, it's your fault.

Like you're the leaders. So if, if if somebody on your team makes a huge mistake, You own it as the leader cuz that person was on your team. And so it may not be your fault, but it is your responsibility. And there's a huge lesson in that I think, for people in their personal lives because again, we, we talk about childhood trauma and genetics and all these things that we all deal with and they can be used as an excuse.

And I think it's really valuable to understand that phrasing that this thing was not your fault, but it is your responsibility, your life is your responsibility. Okay. I'm glad that you changed the word from fault to responsibility cuz when you had first said it like it's the leader's fault. Fault. Yeah.

I was gonna ask you, it was like, do you really subscribe to that? Cuz that sounds like bullshit to me. . No, but it's a way of, I don't like, but it's a way of stepping up. Is to, to just have that mindset again, it's almost like a thought experience experiment. It's like, I know it's not my fault that so and so did this thing, but I'm the leader, therefore it's my responsibility, so how can I make this my fault?

Hmm. I haven't really been in a situation like that personally, so it's kind of hard for me to see like how that actually plays out and what that might actually feel like. Well, think about it from the coaching aspect we were just talking about like, so and so is not compliant. How can this be my fault?

How can this be my responsibility? What can I do differently as a coach to help them be more compliant? Is it to lower expectations? You know? Yeah. Maybe start them in, ease them in a little softer, you know? Sure. Whatever that is. You know what's interesting is that this work that I'm doing with my nutrition certification there's, it's all written feedback.

Sorry, that there's like credit at the bottom of that coffee cup. Sorry. That's a lot of, a lot of grit in there. Yeah. Sediment it's, everything's written out. These aren't people that I'm ever gonna be working with face to face, so I get a lot of practice responding to their feedback for the week of like how things went, things get personal.

And so I, like I said earlier, I'm kind of like formulating how I want to respond to these so that I kinda like check all my boxes and, you know, make sure that I'm supporting them in challenging situations, making sure that I give them action steps. And so I almost feel like I'm getting practice in this arena, but haven't really applied it to like my athletic coaching yet, you know what I mean?

Like, it's just more. Detailed in terms of like the objectives that I'm trying to hit where coaching, coaching, it's so second nature to me now that to think about coaching. Mm-hmm.  is weird. It's like thinking about driving. Yeah. Especially when it's somebody I'm working with in the room. Like there is just energies that you're feeding off of and just things that I know inherently at this point.

Or like, you know, coaches have a developed eye so they know when movement looks correct even on someone they don't know. Right. Right. Like, we have watched so many bodies move that we. Really can understand what like optimal movement looks like. It's like for that particular body. Like an intuitive Yes.

Overall, that stuff. Yes. And like you can read it on their face. You can see, you can see it in a room. Yeah. I think that's one of my, It's it's fun as a coach if you have, you know, 15 people all working out together and something catches your eye, like something on this side of the room is wrong. Yes. . And you go, Yeah.

Yes. So it's like intuitive. Well, I always wanted to be a commentator for weightlifting competitions because I love breaking down that stuff. Yeah. And I love You know, see, I love noticing when people are moving optimally for their bodies. It's such a unique thing, but you know it when you see it.

Mm-hmm. . And it, like I said, like those are things that are so like ingrained within me at this point. Like when we see people running or like jogging down the street, I can't help, but I can't judge . But notice I can't help but notice it's kind of like, you know, I was a lifeguard for many years and like, I will never relax swimming ever again because my job for such a long time was like to make sure people weren't drowning or doing things that were unsafe.

And so it's the same thing with coaching. So I definitely feel like I miss out on that a little bit when it comes to online coaching. But, you know, I am getting visual cues and things like that, so maybe in order for me to do my job well, I need to ask for more data to work with, which is to see more reps, which is to, you know, kind of like simulate.

Those things that I know that I do well. Like, you know, to be able to, to do my best work. Mm-hmm.  way to take ownership. Yeah. , thanks. But like I said, this is gonna haunt me. Like I'm gonna think about this, which is, it's a really important thing. You know, we are not static, as I mentioned, and I wanna be a damn good coach and I know that I am in person.

So now it's conquering a new arena. It's there's a lot to learn. I know that. And luckily I'm working with, you know, people who are really forgiving and have worked with me in person and so they know like where I'm coming from. So that if things are a little like off or weird, like we can workshop it together.

So I feel very privileged in doing that. Yeah. Yeah. Having fun. Yeah. Yeah, me too. Well, let's, I'm just gonna pull up here. Our notes. And talk about some things that might be coming up. Sure. We don't know exactly what order they're in, but just to kind of clue you all in on some upcoming topics might be kind of fun.

The next one in the line, whether it's the next podcast or not, I'm not sure, is mentorship. So, Mm. How can we take the lessons of the guidance of a coach and the necessity for asking help, which you have to do in the gym sometimes. And yeah. Where, where else does that apply in your life? Metrics is another one.

Measuring the right things at the right times. Cool thing about metrics. I think that this, it's a little pushback when I tell people not to set time bound goals and they're like, Well, how would you know if you're improving? And I'm said, I, I, that doesn't mean you can't track what you're doing. Like there's lots of hindsight that you can get from tracking what you're doing and seeing that progress and you can learn a lot.

So yeah, I'm looking forward to that one. Doing things versus not doing things versus doing them well. What? . . I hope there's like some extra notes on that one showing up. Oh, okay. That's funny that you say, Oh, okay. Cuz I'm like, that doesn't make any more sense to me. . I mean, it sounds like a totally different topic, but, Well, the next one is perhaps part of the same note, which is excellence and slash virtuo.

Ooh, this is my favorite topic. I cannot wait to get there. Okay. So there's some teasers of upcoming topics that we can't wait to get to and we can't wait to have you join us. So for those of you listening, we sure appreciate you very, very much. Especially the feedback we've been getting has been very encouraging.

Yes. And we love you for that. If anyone feels so inclined to, you know, if you've, if you're someone who sent us a private message on a positive some positive feedback on the podcast, if. Feel up to it, maybe cut and paste that same thing you sent to us and just put it on Apple iTunes or you know, give us a rating and a review wherever you listen to your podcast.

Then that would be really meaningful for us because growing a podcast is pretty much just word of mouth and ratings and reviews. That's about it all there is. So we sure appreciate you listening and talking about it and giving us feedback. Anything you want to add? No, this was a great time. Okay.

Appreciate it. All right. Thanks for being here, y'all, and we'll see you in a week.

This episode was produced by T Zari and Cody Limbaugh. Check out our writing, coaching services and home studying adventures at live all your life.com. For show notes, resources mentioned, or to submit a question or contribution, click on the podcast tab.