In the first episode of The Philosophy of Fitness series, Tali Zabari and Cody Limbaugh pull from their 30+ years of combined experience as Coaches and athletes to contrast S.M.A.R.T. Goals with a Daily Practice. Is goal-setting all it's cracked up to be? Is it necessary, or even useful? Explore an alternative framing of goals today as we dig into the benefits of being more process focussed and less goal-oriented. Do you agree? If you have thoughts on this episode, join the conversation and view the show notes at liveallyourlife.com
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What were you saying? Well, you have a competitive background. And so you could, you know, push back a little bit on some of these ideas as far as how they relate to competition, uh, which is a lot different than just working out for health purposes or personal development in many other areas. So,
yeah, but with, even in the competitive realm, like this is a really important way of thinking because when I found myself, um, desiring to win, going into a competition, it would fall apart.
It would totally fall apart. Um, you know, it really kind of almost took away the joy that I had competing to because I was attached to an outcome. I needed a certain thing to happen for me to feel happy mm-hmm or for me to feel like I succeeded, not if I, you know, aimed to have fun or to lift at my best ability or.
Make the next lift like that wasn't in my mind at the time. And I remember getting to that point too, and it was, I won anyway but it also just didn't feel great to me. And I knew it right away. And I realized in that moment that I had to like, throw that out the window. I couldn't be that lifter.
Did you feel a let down after you would win?
Like while that happened now, what kind of thing? Like, oh, now where you've just gotta go do it again.
Well, I would make the mistake of feeling like I had to do it again, cuz I had a winning streak at a point mm-hmm where I felt like there would be something wrong with me or I'd be letting someone down if I didn't win the next one.
And so it kind of naturally took on a, a trajectory of its own with this like expectation to win mm-hmm and I think that that was like. It was really evident right away that that didn't work for me because I'd been so process oriented for so long at that point. Okay. Yeah.
So, um, what we're talking about here, just to clue in people who are listening, is that the idea that goal setting may not be the best approach in fitness and maybe even in most other areas of life.
Um, I wrote a whole book about this, but this is gonna be one of the chapters of the philosophy of fitness is the idea that, um, when you, if you make a practice of going to the gym and it is part of your lifestyle, um, then you won't have the attachment to outcomes that you do. If you just have a specific goal.
And there's just so many pitfalls in having specific goals, uh, even though we're told this over and over and over and over and over and over again, to have specific goals, there's a lot of traps built into that. Um, so. One of the things that I would notice with clients coming in is like they would come in and say like, I wanna lose 20 pounds.
Mm-hmm or they had some deadline. Um, and it's almost inevitable in hindsight, looking back over the years that those clients were all the yoyo, dieters, the in and outs, the people who would quit mm-hmm always, and the folks in the gym who are just sort of like the quote unquote gym, rats, who are just ripped and always on the leaderboards and just kick and ass all the time.
Those were people who were just like, they show up at 6:00 AM because that's just what they fucking do. They show up at 6:00 AM. That's what they do. There's no, there was no like end point in mind.
Does it matter what the goal is? If it's something like aesthetic or like a number on a scale versus I want to.
Like achieve something physical, like getting a first pull up or something. Yeah. That's one that we hear in the gym all the time I wanna be able to do pullups. Yeah. Um, but we also see, I also wanna see my abs right.
Well, the way I approach things like a first pull up is that I call 'em a benchmark because rather than a goal, because I think a goal is often taught as being something very specific that happens on a certain timeline.
And in all my years of coaching, I have not been able to predict when somebody will get their first pull up mm-hmm right. Like, yeah, good point. It's really deceiving. Sometimes people can come in looking really lean and strong and they just, they can't do a pull up to save their life. And then other, somebody might come in looking a little doey and shock the hell out of you.
Right. mm-hmm . And so, yeah. Uh it's so what I've always tried to do is, is give people, okay, well, if you. I'll give them an assignment, like with the pullup analogy of like, I want you to be able to do scapular pullups, which for those people listening, it's kind of like hanging from the bar, being able to pull your body up and down just with your shoulder blades, a shrug, a shrug.
Yeah. It's like a shrug and depression kind of thing. Just the shoulder blades, but not no elbow movement. And that's a, that's where you start. And then if you can do that, we'll work on negatives and things like that. And, and I give them benchmarks like, okay, as soon as you can hold your chin over the bar for this many seconds or do this many negative pullups without losing control, then we'll go on to the next skill.
And I just give them these little benchmarks to hit, but they don't know if they're gonna hit that in a week or a month or three months. I just tell 'em that the more consistent you are, the faster those results will come and yeah. And there's the benchmark to look out for.
Well, I think it's really important to take into account, like what state of mind these clients are or who we are, um, like where our mind is at when we are wanting to make these goals.
I know personally for me, I make a lot of goals when I'm in a state of panic , um, and I can speak, um, to like a very recent experience. Um, I'm doing nutrition coaching again, um, as a client, um, it is a certification that I'm working through myself so that I can coach others as that is always my desire, , to deepen the, the learning there.
, but I decided to get back into nutrition, counseling, or coaching when I was feeling really out of control of my body. And at that time I was not able to even think about process goals. I just knew that I didn't wanna be where I was. And that this was a tool that I could use to get the hell out of it.
And so it has taken me many, many, many months, , from the time that I signed up till now where the process goals are actually getting traction. And that was a very significant change in focus. It was no longer, like I want to be 140 pounds again, or I wanna be able to lift what I used to lift. Again, it is I'm gonna go into the gym five days a week.
Mm-hmm , , I'm going to get in all of my protein every day and I'm gonna get two water bottles in while I'm at work. And it's really turned things around in terms of, um, like putting my anxieties at need at bay and then also, um, seeing progress and feeling different. Mm-hmm , you know, my concern is so much less about how I'm looking these days, because I'm building that.
Lifestyle that used to give me so much confidence. And it's really hard when you're looking back, especially if you've been in shape before, or if you've achieved something before. Uh, it's easy to forget how you got there. Yeah. You just knew that you had it at one point now. I don't.
The other thing I like about focusing on the process rather than an end goal is that you're getting quick wins.
Yeah. So every day that you get your two bottle water and all your protein and you hit the gym, there's a sense of victory and like confidence that comes out of that, because you just did what you said you were gonna do and you followed through on it. Yes. And it's like this win every day. Whereas with an endpoint in mind, if you're like, well I'm gonna lose 20 pounds or whatever.
You're not getting that victory until the scale finally tells you what you want to see. Yeah. Which could be weeks or months or never. And, and you are, are just kind of in this sort of like, I'll be happy, win attitude instead of. Finding that victory in the moment. Yeah. Yeah. I've definitely seen that in you as well.
Cuz I know, huh? Yeah. Cuz that first, like the first week you hit five workouts in a row, it was just like, or within the week it was like, I could just tell you felt great, you know? Yeah. And I was excited for you too. Like, well we're both, we're both kind of in the same space, like
well, and oddly at the same time too.
Yeah. I'm not sure how that kind of clicked for both of us. Yeah. Cause we had been kind of not waffling, but like doing really well for like two days and then it would really fall apart for the next few. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not quite sure what made it all kind of happen at the same time for us.
This is a tangent to the topic, but for me, I think what made it click is that I tend to underestimate or overestimate my.
Expenditure. So when I'm setting, uh, uh, an intention for a new practice that I want to implement Uhhuh, it's easy to line out. Oh, I have time to do it here.
Oh, honey. I could have told you that
but like at the end of the work day and that one hour that I have, I could be training, but I feel like garbage, you know, I get home and I'm just wrecked.
I don't want you to lose that though. It's one of my favorite qualities of yours is that you're very ambitious.
Yeah. But no, I'm, I'm just saying like the, what turned around my workouts for me was that I knew I, I have to do it when I first wake up. Mm. Because yeah, because if I don't, yeah. I have time to do it after work, but I don't have the energy to be consistent.
And so I would start off Monday or maybe Tuesday with victory and then the wheels would fall off by the end of the week. And, and then I'd feel bad about myself.
Well, you could almost say that process goals are more challenging. Um, in that way, because it really requires you to take a realistic look at your day and what's achievable and there's a lot of fine tuning and adjusting mm-hmm um, like with your schedule, you've had to change it a million times in order to get in everything that you're getting.
And I would say it's like currently in its best state, in terms of how many things you're achieving in all the different areas that you care about and, um, when it comes to, , just, uh, what do you call them? Smart goals. Mm-hmm um, it's, it's almost too easy. Yeah. You know, it's cheating a little bit. That's a part of goals.
Yeah. That's a part of goals setting that I think some people don't take into an account is that I am a master procrastinator. Like it's an art form. Like I'm a fucking genius at it. So I can actually use goals as a method of procrastinating. Because I, if I put a goal out there, that's like, oh, in three months I will be this, this or that Uhhuh.
Then any individual day is like, eh, I'll do this with tomorrow. You know, I, I can procrastinate. Yeah.
In three months I'll be there. Right. Yeah. Because in three months I'll be there.
Right. But if I have, um, for, in, in the common nomenclature, a process goal, I'm sorry, what did you just say? The common nomenclature?
What people, what, what people usually say is is a, uh, is a process goal. I don't even like that term, cuz it just still has the goal oriented thing in it. Um, I call it a daily practice and Uhhuh. So in focusing more on a daily practice instead of a goal, um, I can't procrastinate on that because it's a daily practice.
Like if I don't do it today, I didn't do it. And there's just, no, it's very black and white. Like I either did it or I didn't,
well, I like the word practice. um, what did you call it? Sorry. I was gonna say practice goal, but that's daily practice. Daily practice. Yeah. I like that wording much better because it seems like it's more a part of you as opposed to this lofty goal that is like outside of ourselves.
Yeah, absolutely. You're you're weaving it into your day. Yeah. You're weaving it into your lifestyle. Yeah. And that's the cool part about being more focused on that journey and building those characteristics or strengthening those charact characteristics mm-hmm um, is because it becomes a part of you, right?
I think that's as opposed to a box to check off that's another,
yeah. That's another aspect that has really hit home to me in trying these methods is that it's more of an integrative process. Mm-hmm whereas an, a goal tends to be an external reward. And so it's like an extrinsic, uh, reward versus an intrinsic process.
And when. Focused more on a, um, daily practice. Like you said, it's more of an integration into who I am. Yeah. Like I'm becoming the person I want to be rather than having some physical, uh, reward that I'm shooting for. Yeah. It's so who I am rather than what I'm trying to do.
Yeah. It's really easy to start picking up on that.
Um, even just like chipping away at it, even early on, like with playing the piano, there was a minute there. Uh, that was a process school that hasn't really stuck around as much as I'd like. Um, but we're busy. Like there's a lot of different things that we. Become. Yeah. And, um, a piano player was one of mine and I could even feel it after maybe two weeks straight of playing every day that I was getting really excited about music theory.
I was really excited about, um, I don't even know what it's called, but like the different patterns that you can play within the same chords, Uhhuh, I dunno what that's called, but I was really excited about it. Um, and just experimenting, like I was able to see how this whole world could open up mm-hmm if I gave it the time of day.
Uh, but the problem is, is that it like physical fitness is so important to me for so many reasons that it just always takes the front seat. Yeah.
Well, right now that's just kinda where we're at. I mean, we are working full-time jobs, which I know a lot of people work full-time jobs, but it's new to us.
It's well, it's different. It's different because we, we. Lived a life of split shifts forever as, as fitness coaches, you're up before everyone else in the world. And then you're going to bed after everyone else in the world. Yeah. And hopefully you get a nap somewhere in between because you're working a split shift.
Not usually, uh, yeah, not usually, but having this sort of normal quote unquote schedule. I, I mean, mine starts way too damn early, but I'm working almost four tens and then a half of a Friday and you're working five days a week. But, um, unlike, you know, maybe most people who have those type full time schedules, we're also trying to launch a business and we're also trying to homestead a ranch and all of those things are full-time things altogether.
And so to get. To stack too many practices on one another is just kind of a recipe for failure. So yeah, I think focusing on the fitness as a foundation to everything else is, is a good thing.
Well, that's why we're fitness coaches. Like we believe in it yeah. Enough that not only can it support us as our livelihood, but it's something that we want to be a part of our lives forever.
Yeah. We wanna be working out till we're, till we're old and gray. Mm-hmm yeah.
Um, you touched on something, uh, that I just want to emphasize a little bit, which was how your practice was sort of opening things up for you, both in confidence and excitement, motivation, that kind of thing. Oh yeah. and I, it's the funny saying that I enjoy with people taking action on things is that you can't steer a parked car and mm-hmm , I think there's a lot of what you had mentioned, uh, goal setting a lot when you're stressed or what I forget the word you used, but yeah, when you were,
uh, in a state of panic yeah.
In a state of panic and I totally relate cuz I'm a chronic list maker when I'm feeling stressed out or like I'm in, in a effectual, I'll just start making lists about everything. But that's really just a form of procrastination. I mean list building and planning and planning and planning and planning, getting ready to get ready to get ready.
You had a note about aiming, aiming, aiming, aiming before you shoot. Yeah. And so when you shoot first instead of, uh, ready, aim, fire, you just fire. And then you look at where you hit the target and say, oh, I need to adjust.
That was gonna be one of the book titles. Do you remember?
Yeah, it was something like that.
I thought it was brilliant.
I still have all those I didn't away. Great. Um, but I think that that's another benefit to a daily practice versus a specific goal is that that daily practice begins to open up, uh, a knowledge set that you can't have until you're acting like you can't know. Yeah. Things about the piano until you actually put your fingers on it.
You can't know things about fitness until you're actually doing reps because experiencing something and learning about it or two different things. Yeah.
Well, weightlifting and fitness in general really taught me to just try things. Mm-hmm and that has been the most meaningful. in general is just to go for it.
Um, and then figure things out. And I'm not talking about like dangerous situations, like jumping off a cliff or anything like that, but just saying yes to things mm-hmm and then I'll figure it out when I get there. Yeah. And like having confidence that I can and that I will. Yeah. Um, I think that constant state of planning or writing lists or dreaming three months, uh, in advance is, um, It's kind of like an excuse to like give into your fear or to give into whatever is stalling you from doing it right now.
Yeah. Um, and it's tricky because that's a sales tactic too. Um, I think that can be very scary for people when they're like, don't worry about the money, just do it. Like, you know, it's gonna be great for you. And so I think it's just really normal for humans to be hesitant about operating that way. Um, but I think it's also just as easy to lean too far in the other direction where you're just dragging your feet stalling and nothing happens.
Yeah. Can you elaborate on your sales tactic analogy?
Well, I just feel like I have been in many situations where, you know, Whether it's, um, coaching or something I wanna buy they're like act now. Oh yeah. Yeah. There's just like a pressure to do it now. Worry about the expenses, the details later. And so I think that that might just be something people are skeptical to in general, that kind of, um, you know, doing, without thinking, I mean, it's portrayed as a bad trait leaps, right.
To right. It's considered dangerous. Like biologically that could be considered threatening yeah. To us as, uh, you know, for our survival, but also like think before you speak, like there's all these, um, I mean, that's a great one, but at the same time, like there are some of us who think about it too much, and then don't say anything.
That's why I get accused of being shy a lot of times. Yeah. Cause I'm overthinking shit before I say it. And so if there's a conversation happening, I'm watching it because by the time I. Feel like it's appropriate for me to articulate what I was gonna say. The conversation's moved on
well, there's another example of it.
Totally. Yeah. So, but you act, that's a really good point as far as sales and that's something I'd never even thought of before is that, um, there's a reason why they use that in sales is that it's effective. It's an effective motivation tool. It's a psychology tool that creates a sense of urgency for you to actually act, which in a sales position might be kind of a manipulative thing.
But if you're doing it for yourself, if you're acting on something you want to become in your life, um, acting now, and then planning later using that sort of psychology on yourself is a great thing because that, I mean, that just proves the fact that it works, right? Like if, if they use it in sales that's yeah.
There's a reason.
Well, you said a lot more eloquently than I did, but yes, that was the idea. Yeah. No, I think that's great. That's something I hadn't really considered about it before. well, there's gotta be a reason other than, you know, just goal setting that we like, what led to goal setting, being what it is.
Mm-hmm . And I'm just trying to think of that on a larger scale. And why is that so common?
So I've thought about that a little bit in, and in my book, I really tear the shit outta goals. like the whole process and I really put it down, but I, I don't want people to think that I'm anti goal completely because what I've come to or like anti achievement or, yeah, for sure.
Uh, because what I've come to think of it in my head as, as there's engineering problems and then there's kind of everything else and engineering problems, I think are a very appropriate place to have goals, because if you're gonna launch a rocket that has to like maneuver in space and meet up with the space station at a certain time at a certain altitude, et cetera, You better have all the steps planned ahead and figured out.
And there's a fucking deadline. If you don't launch on time, you don't launch on time. Yeah. And the whole mission gets scrubbed.
That reminds me a lot of the movie we saw this weekend. Maverick. Oh yeah. Maverick. Yeah. Don't go. Wanna give anything away? It was so good though.
But, um, so there's there's instances where goal setting is absolutely appropriate, but the reason I like to refer to them as engineering goals is that with a rocket launch or with something that's, you know, sort of engineering based, there's a lot of variables that are known in advance.
So they're not easy problems to overcome. Rocket science is not known for being easy, but it involves a lot of, um, physics that are already known by the engineers involved. Right. Mm-hmm . And so they can measure wind speed and they can like, they can track so many variables that it's very complex, but it's still variables that they know how to interact with in advance, but that's not most of life.
That's not how fitness works. That's not how relationships work relationships or your finances. You know, the math of finances is easy. Like a child can do our budget meeting every week. Mm-hmm like it's it's addition and subtraction, but the psychology of money is not an engineering goal. Like the psychology is much more complex and a lot of unknowns and, and lots of unpredictability and yeah, and the car breaks down in three days and you didn't plan on the car breaking down.
And so, um, I feel like where the whole goal setting thing came from besides the smart goals is a cute little acronym or whatever for, for specific measurable. Attainable relevant and time bound is what smart means. But I think a lot of that comes maybe from the industrial age, like the industrial revolution, because I think that's always where we point the finger.
Isn't it? I know, but right. Yeah. I feel like it's that we are treated as if we are factory workers in every aspect of our lives, your marriage, your finances, your spirituality, your sleep schedule, everything is supposed to be regimented and on an assembly line, like you go in, in one shape and you get spit out the factory as something else on the other side, but that's not how it's not organic.
That's not how biology. Yeah, exactly. That's not how the rest of the world operates. And so I have nothing against engineering goals when they're applied to engineering but to use that type of goal setting for the personal achievements that you have in life or. Getting back to the fitness analogy for something that should be a lifestyle or something that you are trying to personally become.
You know, I want to be fit. I want to be limb and energetic and, and move through life kind of carefree and without pain. And to be able to do things in my life that an outta shape person can't do. Mm-hmm whether it's hiking on a vacation or swimming that I suck at, but it, so it takes a lot of energy for me to swim mm-hmm so I wanna be fit enough to just experience awesome things in life, those aren't engineering goals.
And so if I focus on a practice of being the type of person I want to be, that seems much more appropriate to me than using an engineering goal for things that have so many variables that is AB I'd have to be clairvoyant. I'd have to be psychic in order to know how to set a goal for something like that.
Well, and we talked also about the enjoyment factor and how, um, process goals allow you to be more present in the experience and maybe, uh, mitigate how run down you're feeling or how, um, challenging it is because it's kind of broken up into smaller pieces. And it's more about like the quality of your time.
Mm-hmm and, um, I was just trying to think about that when it comes to, um, something like competition, that's what we started talking about and how that might be an exception of some sort, because when it comes to competition, there's winning mm-hmm , there's like records there's, um, a certain amount of lifts to be made or personal record.
Yeah. There's all of these, um, Markers that are like seemingly, um, applicable to smart goals. But I think that joy or that quality factor mm-hmm is really negated. If that's the route that you take mm-hmm , um, you know, for me, for a really long weightlifting meets used to freak the hell out of me. I, the very first one that I did, I blacked out all of my lifts.
I didn't know what happened. I would have to come down to my coach and be like, did I make it ? Um, just because I was not like comfortable being in front of people when you're lifting, um, on a platform in front of a crowd. Yeah. You're the only person up there it's completely silent. Um, it's an intense experience when it's, uh, the first few times.
And, um, I, as a result had varied. Results because I was so out of my body mm-hmm in that experience. And then over time, I really made it a point to, like, I just decided that an important value of mine was to have fun at weightlifting meets mm-hmm and for it to be really enjoyable experience. And it really showed in my lifting too, because if you are, , appealing to something more, like I'm gonna enjoy myself and, you know, interact with the lifters around me, my coach crack jokes.
, I used to get in trouble all the time because. People thought that I wasn't taking it seriously. Right. , but it was more like, no, but my lifting was showing it was much better because I was relaxed. I was in the moment. I wasn't trying to force anything out. Yeah. You know, a lot of that fear was like, I can't handle this.
I don't wanna experience it fully because I'm so worked up over it. Whether it's because I care so much or because there's a lot of stimulation. Yeah. , that was a fun performance to watch you too. Which one at that point, when you got to that point, like you had the crowd yeah. Oh, and that's how I would tell it to people.
I'd be like, I was putting on one woman show. Yeah. I loved it felt like performance. Hell yeah. Yeah, yeah. You
know, that's , an interesting aspect of that particular example is that when you're going in to win a competition from a coach's perspective, you're getting put on a, um, On a peak cycle. So your training leading up to that meat reflects yeah.
You know, uh, uh, peaking, uh, certain lifts the week before, and then having some recovery so that you're going into the meat fresh. And then hopefully you're actually peaking like your personal record in theory, you know, like at, at the meet. And so there's some sort of engineering structure yes. Going on, but as an athlete, rather than the sort of smart goal method, but more, uh, process or practice oriented, it allows you to come out of that, meet afterwards and still feel like you are, you're still involved in it all.
So I, I think what happens with too many process or too many like, um, results oriented goals is that whether you, even if you take home the gold and you you're on the first one on the podium, but then what, what about the day after that? Right. And it's so it's like, you, you kind of hit this peak and then all of a sudden, well, now what, and this is what I was talking about with the yo-yo dieters is that I'd see people hit their goal.
They'd lose the 20 pounds that they said they wanted to, when they first came in and then they'd come into the gym for a few months and be like, why the hell am I here? Like they didn't, they didn't have any, they got there, they arrived. Right. They arrived. And because they arrived big mistake and , it was, and, you know, surprise, surprise arriving didn't feel as it didn't fix everything in their life.
yeah. Like losing the 20 pounds, didn't automatically give 'em confidence. Didn't get 'em a date. Didn't get 'em, you know, anything that they maybe had imagined. And so then they kinda lose focus. And then you see this yoyo dieting, it's like a cliche of, of people yoyo dieting for that, this reason mm-hmm
And I think it's because of that result oriented thing. So I guess what I'm trying to say is. You can, from a engineering sort of, or planning perspective, you can have practices and processes in place that are meant to sort of peak at a certain time, like for a competition, for instance.
Yeah. Like the methods behind it can be what we would consider like conventional.
Yeah. But then your mindset can be more of a practice. Like I am a weightlift. Because it brings me joy. I love the performance. And I'm curious to see how I'm gonna do and going into it with curiosity instead of attachment. Yeah. Is huge. And that way, when you win, it's like an awesome victory, but you're still a weightlifter.
You're still curious about what the, you know, where you're going after that. And if you don't win, it's like, well, I did everything I set out to do. And so I'm curious how the next one will be. And so you can kind of always, uh, I don't know, be kicking that can down the road in a positive way. Yeah, I think, and
I also think that it's important.
If you are someone who sets goals to dig a little bit deeper as to what that goal really represents. For instance, with working against gravity, the, the nutrition consulting that I use. they give you a series of options of like what your goals are. Is it aesthetic? Is it, uh, for performance? Is it an improved relationship with food?
Is it health and wellness? I think there are a couple more, but they ask you to choose three and you rank them, which, which one's most important. And you know, when I was in a state of panic and felt like I needed to shave off 20 pounds, it wasn't necessarily the 20 pounds, but it's what it represented, which when I was 140 pounds, I had my life together.
It had meaning it had structure. It was really fulfilling. Um, and we met, we met . We met, um, it's what it represented. So yes, the, the 20 pounds was important to me, but having my life together, feeling capable and confident in my body. That's what was important to me. And I, I may have attributed too much value to poundage mm-hmm , , as like what makes my life good, but that's, you know, I have my own neurosis with that, for sure.
Mm-hmm , but I think with a program like working against gravity or process goals, it's uncovering really the most important pieces of what we wanna build in our lives. Just as a, you know, there's kind of the facade of 20 pounds or the pullups it's like, no, no, no. What are the characteristics of you as a person who might have that?
What did you achieve? Right. Discipline, respect, uh, self care, all these other things that go along with it. I think it's just reversing the, the priority there of, , like the characteristics that you want to achieve. Mm-hmm and then the 20 pounds being a byproduct of that.
Yeah, absolutely. And also. there's a big difference between hitting a 20 pound goal and living your life as a confident, capable person, right?
Yeah. So that empowerment is kind of like a, um, form of identity or something that you take on a deeper level, like throughout your life. Whereas the 20 pounds is just a number that you hit one time.
Well, that's what you were saying about people who are yo-yo dieters. They'll get there, but they're like, well, I'm not, I'm not fulfilled weird.
Yeah. It's not that weird. Yeah.
Yeah. So it's, I don't know. It's cool to dig deep on this concept of the daily practice versus, uh, the end point. So I've started just for the people who are listening. I've started a daily jump rope. I I'm calling it a challenge cuz it's kind of a challenge to myself, but it's a practice.
It's a daily jump rope practice, not a goal, not a goal. um, because, um, What I want to get out of that, to your point of like the deeper aspects of it is that I'm 47 now. And I'm starting to get to a point where like, for some reason or another, there's always some joint that's like hurting sometimes and, uh, it's not, um, it's usually nothing major, but it's just like, and mainly like if I'm sitting for a long time, get stiff and cold and it's like, takes me a little while to get moving.
And it's just, I'm, I'm trying to like, maybe push that out a little bit. I'd like to live a really long life and be super agile and, and feel awesome later on. And so, um, I look at people who can jump rope, like, like crazy people. Like they're, uh, it's almost like they're dancing or doing some sort of martial art,
like blazer halftime, show kids.
Or like, they're so cool.
Or like buddy Lee or buddy Lee, and, uh, the way that it flows, you can see that there's a, a physical benefit there that is like this mind body connection, where they're able to flow. They feel agile and loose and relaxed and, and, um, it's, it's like their, their whole body is involved and that's really what I'm aiming for, but that's not a specific goal.
Like that's not to get a hundred double under in a row or something like that. Mm-hmm um, so I'm doing this too.
That would be cool though. Yeah. As a byproduct.
Yeah. so I'm doing, uh, two minutes of jump rope practice a day, which doesn't sound like much, but, um, I wanna set the bar low enough that I know I can do it every day and like check that off the list that I, I practiced that day and my schedule's kind of crazy right now to do longer periods.
Plus when you're starting something like jump rope, you can destroy your feet and calves. Easily easily. So two minutes a day is a, actually my calves were super tight the first two weeks mm-hmm . Um, and
you live on a mountain, so your calves are tight.
Yeah. Already . Um, but it's been kind of cool to see like today, as I felt awkward and I looked at the video and I looked just as awkward as I felt.
I mean, it's really silly looking , but as bad as it is, it's way better than it was 20 days ago. Oh, I bet. So today you're on day 20, today was day 20. And so that's part of the cool aspect of, um, the day practice is that you can gamify it by. Seeing how many consecutive days you can get my best streak is 11 days.
And then I missed day 12. And so today's day 20 minus the one that I missed on day 12. Oh. Uh, but now I'm about to hit a new streak, right. So I've hit 11 days and then I missed one and now I've hit another 11 days. So yeah, I'll basically be Pring on my consecutive days, uh, tomorrow or the next day.
It's very layered this streak.
Ah, I know but I guess my point is, is that there's this, uh, even though I don't have some tangible objective measurement that I can point to, but just two minutes a day has created a sense in me that like, oh, I'm just, I'm one of these people who jump ropes now. And like, and as pathetic as it looked today and felt it's still way better than it was 20 days ago.
I know I'm laying a foundation for some cool shit down that line.
Well, and you also might find like 25 days into this that you're like, I don't really care to jump rope anymore. yeah. But at least you gave it a fair shot. Yeah. You know, you've given it enough time that you can really observe your experiences around it, how it affects your day, how it's affecting your calves.
And then you can make a more informed decision moving forward, where I think, um, you know, if you don't give something the time of day or this kind of dedication, then you might not really interact with it fully, or really be able to understand it. If it's gonna help a hurt you. Yeah.
You bring up a really good point around, um, that contrast between, uh, practice and goals again, which is, I think when we set a specific goal for a specific time, sometimes we can feel over obligated to that.
Mm. And if it's not speaking to you anymore, you know, you're allowed to change your mind, you know? Yeah. I think we're taught that if you give up on a goal, you're a quitter, you're a loser, you're this or whatever. But if you commit to a practice and then like you said, 25 days into that practice, you're like, mm, that isn't for me, that's a victory because you didn't quit on something.
What happened is you learned something about yourself. Mm. And self knowledge is what, one of the best gifts we can give ourselves. And so. that's a victory, like quitting is a victory. If you're, if you're doing a process or practice and you decide consciously that you're gonna quit it because it's not speaking to you, that's a victory.
Whereas if you set a goal and you quit, it's looked at it as a failure and gosh, you know, it reminds me of your cello experience actually. Okay. Gosh, and no, but I mean, you did, you gave it a, a fair shake, you know, you had, um, you had some streaks where you were going like consecutive days and that kind of thing.
And you were progressing. I mean, I could hear you progressing. Um, but the friction involved in sitting down with the cello versus the keyboard mm-hmm is you decided that, you know what, that friction is just not, it's not bringing me enough joy that is worth that friction. Whereas I can sit down at the keyboard and it.
Yeah. So what he is talking about is that when it comes to playing the cello, you have to RO in your bow, you have to tune it. You have to, um, wipe it down. Uh, what's dust. It. There's just a lot of setting up that would just easily take me out of wanting to play just there were too many things to do at the beginning.
Um, but what's amazing also about this particular example is that we bought a keyboard because Cody has learned, um, music theory in school and has really retained a lot of it. And so he was passing a lot of that information to me, and it made a lot more sense to explain it on a keyboard than on a cello.
It's just, the layout is far more linear and easier to see visual. Yeah, totally. And through that process, I was like, oh, I think I wanna do piano instead. Mm-hmm . So that had actually led me to something better suited for me. Right. Yeah. Good pick. That was a good anecdote.
Yeah. And I think that's just another example of how that sort of fire ready aim situation worked because you took action, you practiced it, and then it led you to something better.
You shifted your target. You shifted away from what your original intention was, but it wasn't a, you didn't quit on a goal. You didn't fail that. Wasn't a failure. That was a victory because you learned something about yourself and you found something that brought you even more accessible, accessible joy.
So, yeah. Yeah. What do you think, have we exhausted this? Do you wanna keep going?
Well, something did pop into my mind that I was kind of curious about because as important it is to kind of jump in with both feet and commit that that's also been a challenge in and of itself. Um, like I. Kind of started to get off on the idea of like, oh, I'm just gonna try anything and everything.
And like that can lead to a lot of extra money spent that maybe isn't wise or, um, potentially being in a situation like where things don't work out. Like we're talking about it kind of in a whimsical way right now that makes it seem like, of course you're gonna achieve your goals if you think about them this way.
Um, but I just think about like, you know, I tried skateboarding at work where they held like a all women's skating event and I was so excited, um, because I was in really good physical condition. And like with CrossFit, it just kinda makes you feel like you can do anything and like be kind of okay at it.
um, this was not the case. I sucked so badly. , and I was really. like confused by it. Uh, at the time I remember thinking like, why am I not getting this? I'm usually like able to just pick things up. Okay. And there's these like six year olds, like spinning circles around me. , so that was kind of like a hard, uh, experience, but I guess I can always chalk it up to like, at least I tried, you know, I didn't let fear stop me or doubt, stop me.
So. Maybe that's not a great example.
Well, what made you decide to throw in the towel on that though?
Cause I wasn't good at it right away. Probably but I also wasn't in a position where I could like keep doing this. It was a one off ex one off thing. It might have been different if it was like a camp where I had the opportunity to work at it, but it was one evening.
Um, so it just kind of left a sour taste in my mouth. So maybe it's a matter of like setting yourself up with either, um, a coach or the right circumstances or the right equipment that you can actually make it a part of your life and not just like a one off.
Yeah. Well, and that's not a daily practice though either.
No, it's not right. So like maybe if you had, but I had sworn it off
uh, yeah. I mean, perhaps if you had access to a skateboard that you could just play with for. A couple minutes a day, like I am doing with a jump rope that it would've been a much different experience. Mm-hmm . Yeah.
But I think just the discovery of resonance and like what works for you is really the magic behind trying things.
Um, because yes, skateboarding that didn't happen with me. I did have a long board in college because I had a boyfriend who wanted to go long boarding together, but I didn't really care about it, but I bought it anyway. And, um, this same boyfriend also introduced me to CrossFit and that ended up being my entire life after that.
So there's a little bit of luck of the draw when it comes to. Like immersing yourself into something new. Um, but I definitely think like the process goals or the daily practice is a better way of engaging with it right off the bat. It's yeah. Kind of similar, uh, with smart goals in a way by like setting the expectation low.
Like if you're just trying to touch it every day mm-hmm or just trying to engage with it every day, you've already created a win out of that.
Yeah. Yeah. Um, I kinda like the idea too, of maybe setting, um, if it's something new like that, and you're just not sure of it getting back to a fitness example, maybe it's like, are you gonna try CrossFit?
Are you gonna go to kickboxing classes? Are, you know, are you gonna integrate yoga into your program? Um, it might be better rather than saying, well, I'm gonna do this daily practice for the rest of my life of setting. Like, well, I'm gonna try to get. 10 consecutive classes. Mm-hmm , you know, um, Headspace, the meditation app has a 10 day introductory thing where they do 10 meditations.
And that's all I set out to do when I first tried to meditate was I'm just gonna do those free 10 ones. And then it was like, this practice is gonna have value. And so it, it is still a practice of mine today, years later. Um, so I think, you know, that's not necessarily a goal or a, a smart goal, but it could be just like a trial, you know, like GA again, getting back to gamifying.
The, the idea of a daily practice is to say, well, I'm gonna try 10. I'm gonna try 10 and see how it goes and decide if I want to continue or not. As far as exploring new things, mm-hmm,
So, uh, should we wrap it up? Sure. Okay. Uh, do you wanna pull up our list? Uh, we have 47 potential topics, uh, where we are exploring the philosophy of fitness. And if you're listening to this podcast, I'd love any feedback. So we've had quite a conversation. It's looking like we're almost coming up on 45 minutes or so.
Oh, dang. And, um, we touched on a lot of different aspects today of the difference between setting specific, goals that have sort of an attachment and a specific date to, and then contrasting that with integrating something into your life as a daily practice. And that's one of the aspects of fitness that I, uh, have tried to instill in some of my.
Is that fitness is a lifestyle. You hear that all the time fitness is a lifestyle, et cetera. , and so we just wanted to explore that idea. Uh, and then next episode
, next episode is appreciating, uh, the body of work as opposed to a single occurrence. Hmm. It's kind of related to what we were talking about today.
I'm just trying to think of what we were thinking. yeah, we, we have to revisit that. What's the next one. After that the next one is experiencing the joy first and foremost, as opposed to competitiveness or perfection, uh, finding a sport that you love can, and you can Excel in. I will have a lot to say about that.
Yeah, absolutely. And, I think that's one of the big successes of CrossFit as a brand also, is that it gamifies. Fitness. And so things like burpees and thrusters, and pullups like, none of that's new, that, that shit's been around for 80 or a hundred years. Um, and even timing workouts is not all that new, you know, in track and field and stuff, but the way that they combined working out with people, scoring your reps, setting a time and all that kind of thing really gamified it.
And it brought such joy to the process that a lot of people work way harder because they're having fun and they don't realize the effort that they're putting into it until after the workout. And they're like smoked. And so they get better results. And so the idea a little bit behind, uh, next week's episode is that, um, finding something that you find joy in and you can kind of get into, uh, your enjoyment of the process could yield way better results than doing something that you kind of hate, just because there's some.
Pie at the end of it that you want to eat. ,
you had mentioned CrossFit and I think there was just one more component that I would add to it. And this is just kind of like a note reminder for next time. Okay. Um, is that it also dabbles in so many different modalities? Yeah. And so you can really discover what you are good at mm-hmm , you know?
Um, and that was a huge part of my transition from CrossFit into weightlifting. Yeah. I mean,
that's what introduced you to weightlifting. Yeah. Yeah. So throwing a wide net totally. And then seeing what, uh, is in there that you really love. So anyway, it's gonna be a fun conversation. Mm-hmm um, for this conversation, I we'd love any feedback you have.
I'm sure that there's only gonna be like three listeners but all three of you out there, um, and family members, we have a lot of those. Yeah. But, um, in these podcasts, what we're trying to do is write a book, philosophy of fitness. And so in addition to our conversations, we'd love any feedback that anyone has.
If, if this sparked something in you or you have something to offer to the conversation, we'd love to hear from you. So wherever you're listening to this, uh, on our website or on social media, feel free to throw us a comment. Uh, our website is live all your life.com and we have a contact form there. If nothing else you can, uh, always just shoot us a message there.
And, um, we'll look forward to talking to you next.
Okay, we're back. Um, what I expected to happen happened, which is that we record these conversations that we like to have with each other. And then as soon as we wrapped everything up and packed it all away. More started to come out. So, um, we were just talking about, um, goal setting and the faults with kind of having a suspension goal, which is like way out here in the future.
I intend to have this, or do this and how, even by just saying that or sending it so far out into the future, we're already kinda letting ourselves off the hook. It's not always the case, but it's incredibly easy to fall into that trap.
You wanna talk about the example you were just talking about on that show?
Oh, yes. So, um, I have a fascination with, um, like docu series, um, especially, um, like mini series, like MTV, true life. And there was one in particular about, um, some young folks who were really overweight and, um, we were talking about. Gastric bypass, right? Or some other kinds of, uh, surgeries that are available to significantly reduce your weight if you are, , very heavy.
And you said you've had some clients that might have been considering this at one point. And we were talking about how for a lot of people, in that case, there's a need to implement a diet even before the surgery can take place. Um, whether it's to like introduce calorie restriction or to create a safer circumstance being under the knife.
So, I was just thinking about this episode of MTV, true life, where, you know, this kid is at the grocery store and he's grabbing all sorts of, you know, not so great food choices off the shelves and, you know, as he's doing, so he is like, oh, it's fine. Like I'm gonna have the lap band in a few months. Like, it'll take care of it.
And. You know, the psychology that's taking place when someone is saying something like that, as they're making a choice that is directly in opposition of where they want to be. Um, it just made me think about how process goals, are just so much more sound in terms of what people really need to make real transformation, whether it's physical or emotional or spiritual.
Yeah. Because basically the putting a goal out into the future and then trying to work your way back with a map and planning all that stage can sort of let people off the. We were talking about that. Uh, we'd had a conversation once before with people who say, sorry, chronically or apologize for their behavior, but then they don't change their behavior as if saying, sorry, somehow lets them off the hook for their bad behavior and it sure don't
Yeah. And, uh, it it's really a similar thing with goals. I, because really when you, when you sit down with a, a notepad and you write down a goal, you get a little dopamine hit and you almost feel like you just did something to make progress, but you didn't do Jack's shit. You just planned to do something and sometimes planning to do something, gives you the impression that you're doing something and can make you feel a little victorious.
Um, but you're not actually any closer to achieving it. And, uh, so it can kind of act as to sort of get, you know, let you off the hook for today. Whereas. a daily practice is like, you either did it today or you didn't and you start it today.
Well, and the important thing about the daily practice, which I know you, you had found a really important video and I think had reposted something kind of similar about the practice is building integrity with yourself.
Mm-hmm . And when we were just talking about like the dopamine hit that you get with just writing down the goal, there's also like an extended version of that, which I think, um, we see all the time, which is like, tell somebody your goal. Mm-hmm, let people know about it. And, um, you know, then you're kind of like pulling everybody else in there with you, especially if it's like a lofty thing that you don't really intend to chip away at seriously.
Yeah. Well, you can intend to, but there's just a big difference between intention and what is that amazing quote, like all.
All roads to hell are like paved with good intentions. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I thought that was so funny when I heard that the first time it's so true. Um, but building that integrity to yourself, that's a slow process.
Like there are no shortcuts to that. Yeah. And I am so guilty of that same experience of being like, okay, I signed up for working against gravity. I can now sit back. Mm-hmm . And I remember thinking that like, just signing up for the program had already alleviated a lot, but it took me many months to actually make any progress because I had already taken a backseat cuz I thought I had like kind of done a set it and forget it mm-hmm um, sort of thing.
But I forgot that I actually have like a lot of work to do I didn't realize that like I, my lifestyle had changed so much that I had to rebuild so much infrastructure again. Um, like working out consistently or tracking what I'm eating. Um, yeah, I just think, um, it's important to really note that, um, the progress goals have a, a way of building that integrity with yourself and that is what's so transformative.
Yeah. Making promises to yourself that you're following through with and building trust yeah. With yourself and your ability to, to do the things that you say you're gonna do. Yeah.
And you just mentioned that post that I made the other day and that's really what it was all about is that, uh, confidence comes through action.
Mm-hmm it doesn't come from planning. Mm-hmm . And so it doesn't matter if you, you know, buy all the fitness equipment or join the awesome gym and sign up for this class or that class and all that is really kind of a, so a false sense of confidence that it quickly wains, but yeah. When you do the daily work, when you take the actions, that's where confidence comes from.
Is that accountability to yourself? What you said you were gonna do? Yeah. Planning feels really good in the moment, but it's fleeting.
Yeah. I mean, you and I have a lot of experience with planning, planning, planning, and not actually doing anything. And, um, you know, there will be a point where it's like we've planned forever and nothing has happened and it , it almost becomes more frustrating than what you began with.
Yeah. With the, the initial issue. Yeah.
This podcast is just this similar example. I mean, oh yes. You were feeling pretty discouraged about a week ago because we had had the microphone sitting in here for a couple months and, um, yes. Like all set up, ready to go. Yeah. So yeah, definitely guilty of it. But, um, taking that low barrier to entry approach, I think is really valuable in that regard as far as getting started, um, And then once you start there, that confidence starts to snowball when action is taken.
Yeah. And I think it's also important to just mention, like, by no means are Cody and I militant about getting things done. Mm-hmm , you know, this is a lot of, this is, um, kind of like theoretically speaking and definitely speaking, um, about our experiences in the past too. But, um, there is gonna be another chapter that's gonna come up on like what you and I always talk about or call leveling up burnout.
Mm-hmm , which is like, there's this constant desire or pressure to be improving ourselves, that it over time it tends to backfire and we just really need a break. Yeah. Um, and so I just wanna. Make it really clear that there isn't like judgment that comes with the things that we're saying. We have just been really vigilant and pay a lot of attention to patterns in our lives and training and fitness have just really illuminated them.
And it's all in the name of living a full life and to be able to, um, experience it to the fullest and enjoy it, um, even through the challenging times. So, um, I think maybe the things that we're saying now can feel like we're pushing ourselves or pushing everybody who listens to do things a certain way.
And I don't, I really don't want that to be what comes across. I just want to, um, dig a little bit deeper in what our methods that we can really unlock our potential. Um, and. Maybe get more out of it than just checking a box, whether we did something or not.
Yeah, absolutely. There's some grace involved and uh, I mean, that's one, one of my balancing, uh, methods is listening to the philosophy of Alan Watts, that type of thing.
Mm-hmm because he's all about that. You know, like you, you don't have to try to be anything like you just, you're already here, you know, you don't have to, you don't have to try to be here differently. Um, but there's also just an aspect of consequences and confidence and things like that. So, uh, I think what we're trying to do is just, uh, help bring a different perspective to a lot of the hustle, culture and goal setting culture, and, um, The, the messages that are out there to level up and knowing that you, you can level up and you can do it in a way that, uh, builds confidence and progress, but you can do it in a way that's also grounding and remaining , present, and having grace and forgiveness of yourself and, and that kind of thing.
So, and long lasting. Yeah. Cause that's the laundry and it's just something that's sustainable. Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. You were just talking about snowballing and, um, I'm sure it will come up at other times, but, um, we have been on a journey for the last four years to get out of debt. Um, we had pooled our finances and our debt as soon as we started dating pretty much and, , we've been using a snowball method that has really, , it's been a lot of fun for me, , for sure.
And it really has snowballed, not just in. The money itself and how much is going towards our payments towards our debt every month. But the ease of it has also been like really greased up over that time too. Yeah. And so, you know, the daily practices are the same way. Um, I always kind of have this rule of thumb when it comes to working out that if you must stop, do not let it exceed two weeks, if you can help it. there's something about that two week point. That just makes it so hard to get the ball rolling again. Yeah. Um, up that hill and it's really about building that momentum and like the momentum also creates depth.
Yeah. You just brought up something I totally meant to include in this conversation too, which is that, um, daily practices play on that aspect of momentum.
Mm-hmm because it is so much easier to keep going than to start going. I mean, Starting and stopping and starting and stopping is agony. But continuing to go is like, well, I can do one more. I can do one more. I can do one more, you know?
And when you build your capacity that way, and you can yeah. Really push your boundaries.
If you think that way.
That's why, that's why I'm a really big fan of really short, easy practices too, because I think that there's a tremendous value, for instance. Um, if you just took my recent jump rope experiment as an example, two minutes a day, seven days a week. So it's, it's only two minutes, so there's rarely, can I make an excuse to that?
Why I can't do it? Right. So it's a low barrier to entry with low resistance to getting started each day. Um, it builds momentum because it's a daily practice. I don't have to talk myself into it. And if you just took the same amount of practice, that's basically 14 minutes a week, which doesn't sound like much, but 14 minutes every Sunday morning sounds.
I would have to talk myself into that. Cuz 14 minutes of jump rope is fricking exhausting. If you don't jump rope much, you, I mean, , it doesn't take long to like, you know, get out of breath, jumping rope. So 14 minutes all at once or two minutes, every single day, the difference is night and day in your, um, discipline to be able to do it, the ease of the approachability of it and the confidence because you're, you're getting that every single day, you you're able to build on that confidence on a daily momentum kind of basis rather than a start, stop, start, stop that.
Yeah. There's a familiarity to it. Yeah. And the, the other benefit of a daily, small approachable practice versus like a once a week slog is that if for some reason I miss one, I miss two minutes, one day, But if I were doing this weekly for 14 minutes on a Sunday morning, if I missed one, then I would have a two week gap between practices mm-hmm
So it it's like the stakes are higher. Uh, when you do an infrequent practice as well, that's why I'm a really big stickler on like, trying to promote this sort of small, approachable, daily practice to get to where you want to go on most things.
So where is your practice going? Exactly. Do you intend to add a minute or are you just working on jump roping consistently through those two minutes?
Yeah. Cause I've done, like we've done structured workouts where you're supposed to like jump rope for all. Like an entire minute mm-hmm and, you know, I get tripped up or I get tired or something, you know, it's hard to do that consistently. Yeah. So I'm just curious.
So my long term vision that I want is to be able to sort of freestyle.
I want to be able to sort of, you know, turn around, do different footwork, start and stop the rope, do different turns and dancer routines. Yeah. And do it in a way that's flowy and, and fun. Um, but to do that, there's just a whole bunch of foundational skills I have to get to before that. So what I'm doing is basically a two year experiment.
I'm my plan is to just do like two minutes a day as a minimum, low bar approach. But already my stamina is improving even from the two minutes. Uh, at first, my calves and feet were just killing me, uh, for the first couple weeks believable. And now not so much, I also had a weird knee injury, unrelated to the jump rope, but that kind of slowed me down for a few days, but that's recovering.
So the two minutes is just a nice approach to be able to set the bar low enough that I can do it. But around day 30, the plan is to give myself some latitude. So two minutes then will be the minimum. Oh. And so at that point, instead of a, a clock counting down two minutes, it'll be a running clock and I'll just do, I'll just, my accountability is to do the two minutes minimum, but if I'm feeling like, oh, I'm making progress today, this is getting fun.
Then I can allow myself to go over the two minutes.
And have you had any fun so far? Like have you had that feeling of like, Ooh, I should keep going well,
as awkward as I looked today and you were there and you're not usually there for that practice.
Did I make you nervous?
You didn't make me nervous, but it was just like, this is really goofy.
Isn't it? uh, and I, I didn't think anything like that. I even looked at the video and I'm like, yep. It looks just as awkward as I feel. But I was actually pretty excited today because I was doing that boxer shuffle, which mm-hmm scissors. Yeah. It's like a scissor step. Um, and the way I'm doing it is so disjointed, it looks like I don't even know what it looks like.
it looks terrible, but it's supposed to be a boxer shuffle. But the point is, is that, um, when I first attempted, and for the first two weeks straight, I could not get past three jumps. Um, just something in my brain would click it'd be like right. Left, right trip, right. Left, right trip over and over. And today I got like 30 jumps in a row with it.
Nice. So that was, yeah, that's huge. Yeah. It is three to 30 is significant. It is. And it was kind of a sudden little tipping point. So that just, you know, I'm confident that. Weeks and months down the line, I'm gonna be feeling a lot more flowy and it's gonna like, not look so disjointed and awkward, and that's just the direction I want to go.
So it's more of a trajectory focus rather than a goal focus. Yeah. Well, it also sounds very exploratory. Yeah. Yeah. Which is cool.
Well, I feel like I got out all the things that I wanted to say. Okay, good. Um, but I also anticipate this happening a lot more. Um, you know, a reason that we started this podcast is that there have been many, many, many conversations of ours where, you know, one of us will turn to the other and say, why didn't we record that?
you know? Yeah. Um, so I'm not surprised that this just got the juices flowing and you know, that there were more things to tack on. So thanks for opening it back up. No problem. There's an edit button for a reason. excellent. I'll tack it on. Anyway, we, I look forward to the next episode though. Me too. You wanna record tomorrow?
Sure. After work. Yeah. I always say that. And then I dragon, but we'll see. Well, all of the things have been set up now. Okay. Right. We know how to do it. It's working. And I think we've discovered that we like it. So all right. Yeah. Something we look forward to. All right. See you back here tomorrow. Love you. I love you. .